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The Mischief Movement Podcast
A podcast for people looking for more Hell Yeah in their life! This is your one-way ticket out of midlife-mediocracy towards fun and positive impact, via playful-disruption! Wouldn’t you love to wake up and feel like a total badass?! Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it! We’ll discuss mindset, share stories and develop strategies in a bid to help you find the freedom, adventure and meaningful connections you’ve been craving. You will feel inspired to create positive change, do more of what makes you feel alive and rebel against the ordinary!
The Mischief Movement Podcast
Mindset & Motorsport: Ian Travers on Transforming Life Through Non-conformity
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Have you ever felt like a little rebellion could be the missing ingredient in your life? This week, The Mischief Movement Podcast welcomes Ian Travers, host of One Thought At A Time Podcast, a beacon of nonconformity and the guide you didn't know you needed to break free from mental barriers. Our conversation isn't just a stroll through Ian's transformative journey from a bullied math enthusiast to founder and mindset coach, but it's a call-to-arms for anyone ready to inject a little more fun and change into their life.
Together we unpack the liberating effects of embracing your unique self and the seismic shifts that can come from tiny mindset changes. For those feeling stifled by the pressures of conformity, we reveal the secrets to finding joy in leadership, authenticity, and the pursuit of personal satisfaction outside traditional paths. Ian's wisdom doesn't stop with tales of his own evolution; he dives into the compelling world of motorsport coaching, where mental fortitude is the real race, and shares how the same principles can revolutionise our own lives.
But wait, there's more than just inspirational discourse! We get practical, offering tips on how to challenge self-doubt, the power of daily gratitude practices, and the surprising benefits of cold showers. This episode isn't about grand gestures but about the small, playful acts of mischief that lead to an exhilarating life – a life where you reach your full potential, one mischievous step at a time. Join us, share your own stories of cheeky rebellion, and become part of a community that dares to find joy in the unconventional.
https://www.thinkingitbetter.com/onethoughtatatime
Not long ago I felt trapped by the daily grind and all the mundane stuff and responsibility it brought. I wanted to escape but instead of running away, I decided to rebel against the ordinary, put FUN back on the agenda and do more of the things that made me feel alive. This podcast is one of them and through these conversations I'd love nothing more than to be able to help you do the same!
Grab yourself a Mischief-Maker t-shirt and join our community!
Feeling inspired to start YOUR OWN T-shirt store?! This handy link will take you straight to the platform you need where you can have a go without big financial risks because it's all print-on-demand 😜 (*affiliate)
For more insights and inspiration on living your best life and rebelling against the ordinary, check out the blog or sign up to my newsletter at zoegreenhalf.com You can also find me on Instagram @themischiefmovement or LinkedIn and let's start a conversation. Who knows? Maybe we can shake things up and start making mischief together!
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider telling a friend or leaving a review (5 stars would be great! haha!) so that together we can spread the message that midlife ...
I'd lent my ladder up against the wall. I'd climbed to the top of the ladder and I didn't like the view that I saw, so I needed to do something else, and that was where I thought I need to do my own thing.
Zoe Greenhalf:Hello, it's Zoe mentor, creator and mischief maker behind the Mischief Movement podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more hell yeah in their life. I'm on a mission to help you rediscover that rebellious streak, find your confident inner badass and stop holding yourself back from the amazing life that you're dreaming of. Why? Because I know what it's like to wake up one day and think, wow, this isn't the life I'd imagined for myself. But I decided to bring the fun back, get curious about the things that made me feel alive and empower others to boldly rebel against the ordinary with me, and so the mischief movement was born. I've always loved the word mischief because it's cheeky, playful and a little bit rebellious, and that's exactly what I hope this podcast brings to the table. Now I'm daring you to jump in with me. Are you ready? Let's go. In case you haven't heard, you can now purchase Mischief Movement merch. It's all done through TeeMill, a UK print-on-demand platform offering global delivery, organic cotton and production powered by renewable energy. Not only can you now tell everyone you are a true mischief maker, but if you feel inspired to create your own t-shirts, stickers or mugs, you could also give tmail a try, because it's a great way to experiment your ideas and take fast action with low risk. You'll find the links in the show notes, so write yourself a little reminder for later. And let's get back to the episode. Do you have a rebellious streak? And if you do, can you remember when it first reared its head?
Zoe Greenhalf:My guest this week is Ian Travers, host of the podcast One Thought at a Time, and as we chat about not conforming, he reveals some of the milestone moments in which he remembers being non-conformist right from school. His rebellion is one of wanting to do the right thing, fighting for fairness and removing people's perceived limitations. To this he's added a deep interest in psychology and human behaviour, although not without first igniting his passion for leadership in the corporate world. Now he's found a way to help others, from racing drivers to business managers, by removing the mental barriers so people could get out of their way, turn down the fear and crank up the fun. Here's how you can literally change your life, one thought at a time. Well, this week I'm joined by Ian Travers, who I had the pleasure of chatting to last week, and again, I think it was before Christmas, wasn't it that we first connected, maybe?
Ian Travers:Yes, yes, we were introduced by Lara Small.
Zoe Greenhalf:Yes, that's right, I love Lara. Um. So yeah, we had this initial conversation and I knew I wanted to get you on the podcast, so I'm gonna hit you with the, the opening question, um, that I give everybody, which is what is your mischief, ian?
Ian Travers:oh my mischief um is not conforming good answer, good answer.
Zoe Greenhalf:Where does that take you?
Ian Travers:um, well, it's interesting. I, I, I was pondering this, uh, after our last conversation I thought we said you know what? What is my mischief? And I really do think it is. It's it's conforming or not conforming. Um, and I was, I was curious with myself because I know I'm like that now, but I, I was just pondering where I think that came from, uh, and I think it showed its first signs when I was at school okay contrary, to what you might think, with what I do, I was not a confident kid at school.
Zoe Greenhalf:Really.
Ian Travers:In fact I was. I was known as a bit of a boffin because I happen to be good at math.
Zoe Greenhalf:I love that word.
Ian Travers:So I was I was sometimes picked on definitely bullied um definitely bullied um.
Zoe Greenhalf:I wasn't into physical stuff.
Ian Travers:I was a bit overweight, I was quite big for my age, yeah, uh, and a thing that's always always bothered me is people not being fair, and there was an instance at school and this is probably, um, where I think the symptoms of this non-conformity comes from. So there was a particular nasty little bully at school I shan't remain his name now because he's probably a very respectable business person could be one of your former clients.
Zoe Greenhalf:You don't know.
Ian Travers:You never know. So he was small, I was much bigger than he was and we were all due to be in this classroom and I didn't like being late and he thought it would be a laugh to go in the classroom and block the door so that no one could get in, and it just tweaked something in me. So I pushed the door and I opened it and he squared up to me and people were filing into the room past me and you know I forget. It was something I'm going to beat you up after school or something like that. You know the usual, the usual thing, and I don't know what possessed me, but I hit him just the once and I remember the look of horror on his face.
Ian Travers:Um, anyway, cut to a long story short, I got called to the head teacher and I got detention and I thought he's so unfair because I thought I, I was, I was the one who stood up for all my class colleagues and got this oik out the way and got the lesson underway. And ever since then I thought, you know, just doing the right thing is actually a little bit more important than maybe conforming, and I think that's where it started. I mean, I could be completely wrong, but that for me is probably an early sign of where I started to not conform.
Zoe Greenhalf:Yeah, and where did that take you? That was obviously your sort of first memory of something triggering. But what was the journey in non-conforming after that?
Ian Travers:So I think there's a few milestones there there. Because what then happened when I was still at school? Uh, I decided that I was going to go and start karate. No one else was doing karate. I thought I'd go and do karate because I thought, you know what, maybe I should get in shape, um, and maybe it will help me. You know when people do pick on me. So I started karate, um, and I remember getting um the mix taken out me for doing karate. You know, you know, and people would kind of do kung fu hands at you and that kind of thing. And oh, you're doing karate, you're going to beat me up or what. And the thing I learned with karate was that it's all in the mind and that you haven't learned these skills to beat someone up. You've actually learned the skills to be calm and disciplined yeah, self.
Ian Travers:Self-discipline. So I think that was sort of a bit of non-conforming. Then I think I suffered conformity for a while. So I was kind of pointed at university. You know you should go to university. I'm thinking I don't really want to go to university. What do I want to go to university for? It means I'm going to leave home, leave parents, leave my comfortable bedroom, leave my friends. Why would I want to do that? So, anyway, it's the right thing to do. So I, you know.
Ian Travers:So I conformed and then it was what we know. What should you do? I thought I know I'd love to do, love to do psychology, and because at that time I was reading books by freud and jung in the sixth form library, because I thought this is really interesting, never mind all this math stuff that I just happened to do in the sleep, but this was really interesting. But then I thought I better conform because, you know, because I'm probably gonna need to get a job, um, so I'll do engineering, so I. So I conformed and I think I then went, uh, and I was fortunate enough to get sponsorship in my final year of university to go and work for the great, prestigious aerospace aero engine manufacturer based in Derby Rolls-Royce, the pinnacle of engineering as it was at the time. That's where symptoms of my non-conformance came to the surface again.
Ian Travers:Non-conformance came to the surface again because I, um and I, I remember going on graduate induction day and everyone there is all suited and booted, you know, very smart, you know, or you, but everyone kind of looked the same. Yeah, um. So I put on a yellow, uh, like a lime green, yellow parallel knitted tie, um, and I can remember this the guy had been presenting to us, obviously long served at Rolls Royce and at coffee. We were chastened. He came up to me. He said why are you wearing that? That was a very strange question. I said because I like it. He said it's not very traditional and I said no. And then he said these words to me. He said oh, you'll be conforming for far too long, you'll be conforming before too long. Well, that was red rag to a ball. I thought not on my watch amazing um and that was kind of it.
Ian Travers:Um then my conforming, non-conforming went to. I got fed up with this. I spent a couple of years at Royal Dores and thought what am I doing here?
Zoe Greenhalf:Really.
Ian Travers:Yeah, so I left, I did lots of other exciting stuff, only to end up that I really wasn't happy with the same as everyone else. I wasn't, I just wasn't happy with it.
Zoe Greenhalf:What do you think you were looking for? Because you said that you had an interest in psychology that you probably hadn't been able to explore at that point. You didn't necessarily feel like you were fitting in and conforming at rolls royce, but have you found what it was that was missing?
Ian Travers:that's a really good question. I think I'm still on a journey, but I think I'm much closer to it than I was before okay um, what was it I was looking for?
Ian Travers:I think in the early days, I just wanted to do something that I thought would make a bit of a difference. Even back then, I wanted to do something that was, I think, helpful and, if I'm completely honest, I probably wanted to be appreciated for being helpful. Yeah, and that's a thread that's gone a long way with me. It is important to me even now to do my very best, and whilst I don't seek appreciation, I am hugely grateful when I receive it. Yeah, does that make sense?
Zoe Greenhalf:Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, I'm just interested to see if you're sort of where your path went then. Because you went through university, you end up in a job, but then you don't stay that long before you realise that it's not really quite right for you. So where do you go then?
Ian Travers:So I was restless there and I think probably at that time I was driven by. So what would I been? I was in my 20s. I was driven by suddenly realizing I could earn money and that money enabled me to do things. So part of not wanting to conform, but also the other thing that has surfaced during my life, is my impatience. I am not a hugely patient person, so I left, and part of that is I was looking for a better job. I didn't want to grind through and earn my stripes and, you know, spend five years before I became a leader or a manager. I wanted to do it now because I thought I was ready now. I mean, I really wasn't.
Zoe Greenhalf:I wanted to do it now because I thought I was ready now. I mean, I really wasn't, but I thought I was Did you inspire to be a leader and a manager?
Ian Travers:Yeah, I did. I wanted the thing. That is kind of crazy, this, and I still puzzle with this today. So when I was at school, so when I was that kid who was getting bullied but then did karate and got a bit more self-confidence, I was still the SWAT, you know. I was still the, you know, the person who knuckled down to get their exams done. But I found myself starting a school band and I was the front person, lead singer and lead guitarist in a rock band at school. Um, so it was almost like, you know, I kind of put this persona on which was look at me, I'm at the front, I'm really, really good. And then, as soon as performance was over it was almost, you know, let's go back into um ian, who doesn't want to be noticed and just left alone and just to get on with life. That's reared its head a few times. So as soon as I then got into industry, the job I wanted was the leader's job. Um, I didn't really understand much about leadership at that time, but I can remember going on a.
Ian Travers:There was a leadership development program that that robert was did for its graduates and you went away to um bristol. You were kind of away for a few nights, I seem to remember it was. It was probably a bit like purgatory now, but you were kind of removed from your family and all things. Uh, bear in mind, no internet, no mobile phones at this time. And you were kind of removed from your family and all things, bear in mind, no Internet, no mobile phones at this time.
Ian Travers:And you were dumped in this, this hostel, in the middle of nowhere in deepest, darkest Wales, and you had 48 hours to plan a camp for underprivileged kids and then you were bused from there under you know, sort of the cover of darkness it's, and and you were, you descended upon this place and you and your other, I don't know, 15, 20 um colleagues, without external assistance, you know, had to run this camp for these horrible. Oh god, I mean, you know, I mean today I'd want to be paid some serious good money and be have a tv contract for doing that now, but that was seen as personal development. But even in that I can remember thinking I need to lead this group. I need to lead this group. That was lead not leave right.
Ian Travers:You leave. Yeah, I need to seize control, I need to be the one making decisions here. That was the thing. And then, whatever situation I got in, I thought, yeah, okay, so I don't want to be the one winding the handles here, I want to be the one who's setting the direction, and that came very, very early in my career.
Ian Travers:You know, I thought, because, again, the trajectory I was on. Whereas I was an engineer at university, I was recruited as a graduate engineer. My trajectory was to be an engineer. Um, and it soon became apparent to me I am not cut out to spend hours sat designing something, thinking something. Um, I want to be the one on stage or in front of the people talking about it. Um, I've got an anecdote and a story for everything. Um, because I I think in stories and pictures. Um, so that's kind of what, what started to brew in my, my early career, I think.
Zoe Greenhalf:I think it'd be fair to say that you're still doing that now, aren't you? Because in your line of work now which we we, I mean we haven't touched upon what it is that you do. So I'll let you explain that. But I do know that that kind of skill that you developed of simplifying more complex concepts and being able to explain them to people is part of what you do now.
Ian Travers:Yeah, I think that that's that's. That's a really good description. Actually, I might steal that from you.
Ian Travers:Um so what do I do now? So I stepped off the corporate world. Uh, in December 2010, my, my wife, jane, she actually said it to me. She said you've lost your mojo, haven't you? Uh, and yeah, I'd lost my excitement. Um, you know, I'd lent my ladder up against the wall. I'd climbed to the top of the ladder. I didn't like the view that I saw, so I needed to do something else, and that was where I thought I need to do my own thing. And by this time, I'd met a couple of people who were big influences in in my life and career, who introduced me to. You know, it was finally the the revisiting of this passion around human behavior and psychology.
Zoe Greenhalf:Interesting.
Ian Travers:To which I became a very enthusiastic amateur and continue to research and read and be fascinated as we slowly unpick what is in our head. So I left there and initially I just went and consulted. I'd got a reputation in my field at at the time, which is project and program management, so I used to go and I spent a year or so consulting in that with a, with a company.
Ian Travers:But during that time that gave me the space and the self-belief because I've now suddenly jumped um which isn't no mean feat uh, it isn't uh terrifying, I think, is the word yeah, but I read a book once that said feel the fear and do it anyway.
Zoe Greenhalf:Absolutely. We're massive advocates of that on this show.
Ian Travers:Yeah, so I did and it was scary, but I would do it again tomorrow. But, incidentally, my dad, who passed away, didn't actually see me doing this, but I remember his words to me. He was shocked at my non-conformity because I can remember him saying to me what on earth are you doing, leaving a perfectly good job? And I thought, oh, bless you, dad. But what you don't understand is I'm not happy and life is more than a mortgage and a house and a car and a grind nine to five every day.
Zoe Greenhalf:And.
Ian Travers:I'm not saying, you know, if that's you, that's great, that's fine, but it wasn't and still isn't me. So what do I do? I help people get out their own way. That's kind of where my passion lies, and I do that in a couple of ways. I started a business called Thinking it Better because I believe that whatever it is we are doing, whatever the it is that we are trying to achieve whether it's being a great mum, dad, friend, brother, sister, leader, racing driver, whatever it is the way we think is the determination of how successful we're going to be. Other stuff is out there as well. I mean, you know you have to have some ability. But fundamentally, I think, leaving aside personal care, like eating the right stuff and sleeping well, I think the next big thing is what you say to yourself, the story you paint in your head, your mindset. So that's what I started and that business is now. It will be 12 years old this year.
Zoe Greenhalf:Wow.
Ian Travers:I know, and largely what I've spent the time doing with myself and the people that have joined me in the journey is we will go and engage with individuals or businesses and we do some some one-to-one stuff and it's helping people realize their potential. They might be frustrated that they're not achieving something they want to achieve and we'll help them achieve that. Or with small growing businesses typical businesses that are small and becoming medium sized businesses kind of something around 200 people. They all reach this stage where the person who was the founder suddenly now doesn't realize that they've got to inspire and lead 200 people and they can't make all the decisions and there's all sorts of baggage that comes with that. So we help them with that. But it's all around the thought space and advising on factory setup and lean behaviours, that kind of thing.
Zoe Greenhalf:I wanted to ask you actually about the kind of like the motorsport element. Ask you actually about the kind of like the motorsport element. There's a real link there between motorsport and some of the interviews that you do and stuff, and we didn't even really touch on that. But I'm just curious is that because of your engineering links or a passion for motorsport or where? How's that sort of?
Ian Travers:it's an interesting one. So I do like cars. I wouldn't say it's a passion, but I do like cars and I'm not an avid follower of any particular motorsport but I do enjoy watching motorsport. But it's more circumstantial and it's probably about eight years ago. I had an inquiry from a guy who wanted some one-on-one um help. Um, he'd got a couple of businesses and it turned out that he was. He was an amateur racing driver as well and that was my first um time I'd got involved in um, the other side of motorsport, so what happens behind the wheel and in pits, and I was completely fascinated by the impact that unpacking and using the approach that I use with anyone else, but the the significant impact that had on him as a racing driver.
Ian Travers:It was huge really um, and, and it was that internal dialogue, his internal dialogue, was causing him to not win races. It was also causing him not to do a whole load of other stuff in his life and actually, as a consequence of getting together, he actually paused his motorsport career for a year because he realized that, in order to make the motorsport good, there was some other stuff he needed to sort out in his life and his head first, and then he went back to motorsport. So I think, yeah, I've been fortunate enough to work with a number of people in motorsport over the last few years the last couple of years in particular, where we got involved in sponsoring a driver and a team as well so I really got a good, good insight into what happens. So I really got a good, good insight into what happens and I can tell you it is a place that really really needs the stuff that you and I talk about. Really, I'd say it's yeah, it's a very, very interesting culture, I would say inside the pit lane and paddock.
Zoe Greenhalf:I can't even imagine.
Ian Travers:Yeah, so, yeah, so I think. So I've had the good fortune to because I've been in that space, I've ended up meeting some quite interesting people.
Zoe Greenhalf:So, yeah, I think it's an interesting place to dabble, because you can see the results quite quickly. Yeah, do you? Do you um call yourself a?
Ian Travers:performance coach when you're in that kind of um. Yeah, so in that space I would call myself a mindset coach, performance coach. I tend not to badge myself um when people ask me what I do.
Zoe Greenhalf:I know this about you. That's why I'm like poking a bit. Yeah, if people ask me what I do, you know this about you.
Ian Travers:That's why I'm like poking a bit. Yeah, if people ask me what I do, you know the convention would say aye, well, I'm the founder and managing director of a business. I couldn't care less. When people ask me what I do, I say I hope people get out their own way. Huh, okay, how do you do that? And that it's far more important to me what I do rather than the badge that I put on it. So whatever badge people want to use, I'm relaxed about that. Um, judge me on what I do, not on what I call myself. I love that.
Zoe Greenhalf:I love the idea that you can work in those kind of fields where like like you also, I mean you. You've also been a running coach as well, haven't you? Where you can actually really visibly see the results, the physical results of what's going on in the mind. For me, that is so fascinating.
Ian Travers:Yeah, yeah it is, it's very, very quick. I mean, you know, I've I've got two kids who are nearly growing up. I've got, you know, oliver is 17 and Charlie is 21, who are, you know, doing their own great things now and I've had the pleasure of seeing the impact it's had on them getting out of their own way.
Zoe Greenhalf:And you see the, you see the results so quickly um, it's such an amazing skill to have and such a yeah, I get really, you know, I get really excited by this because I just think what a way to make an impact on people. I just can't think for better so why?
Ian Travers:why, why do we not introduce people to this thought through the education system?
Zoe Greenhalf:I don't know If you're a small business doing things differently, an independent brand disrupting the status quo, or simply an unconventional, adventurous individual looking to make more of a positive impact. I'd love to hear from you so we can share your story or create some amazing sponsorship opportunities together. I'm always open to collaborations, too, so DM me on Instagram at the Mischief Movement.
Ian Travers:I find myself in a position where I probably do more of the running of the business and less of the being in front of people, so I still need to tick that box for me. So that's the podcast was born.
Ian Travers:OK so the podcast was born, and to thank for that I have Charlie Travers, my oldest son, and also my friend and colleague Jason Edwards, who lives in Texas, and they both were people who nudged me along the direction of saying you should really have a podcast. I think you know you should, you should, you should do that. So we're in the second year of one thought at a time.
Zoe Greenhalf:Brilliant and that's kind of my.
Ian Travers:Brilliant, and that's kind of my personal strapline. My personal passion is I think the way we get better is not by trying to boil the ocean, not by trying to change everything, but changing one thing at a time. And in my mind, how are we better tomorrow than we were today? By having one better thought tomorrow than we did today, and then you know, so that's what I do, um, so I've got the business that does that, and and then I've got the um, the podcast, which I do just because I'm passionate about it, and I can probably see a time where I can even see the business ending up with someone else at the helm at some point. But I think the podcast I can't really see ever getting that drug out of my system really you enjoy it that much.
Ian Travers:I do, yeah, because it's my wish when I was growing up.
Ian Travers:Actually I haven't stopped growing up because actually I think it's a trap, but as I have continued to learn, I have really enjoyed listening to other people's conversations rather than being preached to yeah um, and I like hearing people in conversation and thinking, huh, I never thought of that yeah and that's what I hope people get from from my podcast, because all I do, similar to yourself, is I ask people their stories, but I'm really curious about their mindset and environmental influences, so so, yeah, so that that was a long way of saying what I do now is is to help people be better, help businesses be better.
Zoe Greenhalf:Um, but at the center of that is how we think yeah, absolutely, and I think it's really interesting there that you you mentioned the fact that they are these small, incremental changes. When you're talking about thoughts, we're going really kind of micro. This is another theme that's come out many times on the podcast is just this sense of you might have a massive goal, you might have a big dream, but it all starts with the small stuff and the small stuff that just kind of stacks and it's it's there that we can really start to create an impact on ourselves and on other people. It doesn't have to be that massive thing that feels far away and hard to achieve when we bring it back to where we are and and make those little small changes there's a a challenge that I did back, going back to when we were coming out of covid, and I've thought about rerunning it in one shape or form.
Ian Travers:We did. There was a time when the government announced that we were going to come out of lockdown someday in june, and it just coincidentally happened to be 100 days from where we were. So I launched 100 Days of Gratitude and what it was I said this is not. You know, please, please, don't feel the need to share any of this on socials. All I'd love you to do is to get yourself a book and, every single day for the next hundred days, just write down something that you're grateful for and use it like a scrapbook. You know, if you want to stick, whatever you want to do, but write it down, um, because two things one, it will make you smile, and not only that, at the end of a hundred, you have got a brilliant book for when you're having a bad day to flip back through. Yeah, we'll just get that across, because if you say to people you should really practice gratitude, yeah, right, okay, but how I get this on people?
Ian Travers:I was, you know, talking to people about meditation and I was just the same. I had a real block against meditation because to me, meditation, the picture I had in my head was going home, justice burning, and I couldn't have been. I mean, that is a form of meditation, but there's so many other things you could do. And it was Jason who, although he's dormant, looks after Thinking it Better, usa, and he said I've been meditating every day for like 10 years. I said have you? So it got me curious about it and so I do.
Zoe Greenhalf:There you go. You see, it's that curiosity Leads you down all kinds of random paths.
Ian Travers:Habits. You see, it's all about these little thoughts, it's all about injecting habits and it's once you've habitualized something, that's when you kind of suddenly look back and think how did I do that? And that's that's everything. So I probably mentioned we met, but I've been cold showering. So I mean I'm I'm now a year and a half must be almost two years now into cold showering and I cannot now have a shower without finishing it cold. If I don't, my inner chimp or tiger says hey well, why in a minute you've not cold, you've not done it. It feels wrong now not to do it. It's habit forming. So you know, and if you can get the gratitude habit and the meditation habit and one little thing, and then suddenly you look back and you are not the person that you were two years ago I feel like we should have a whole other podcast episode just about that, about right making these small changes, because tiny changes yeah, because sometimes I mean always I always talk about that.
Zoe Greenhalf:I always talk about the micro mischief. It's not about um, you know, the big gestures that you can't maintain. And I talked about it in the in last week's podcast with my guest when we were talking about the fact that neither of us really consider ourselves massive rebels. We'd love to, we'd love to say we were the you know real sort of anarchist, but we're not. But we do like the word mischief because it is a little bit rebellious but it's also quite playful and fun and we can be shaking up the status quo in a more subtle way. And I think the idea of making small incremental changes that you just don't notice really at the time is just the vision of of all of that really I know when.
Ian Travers:Often, when I start working with people one-on-one, and we've, you know, we're ready to really get going, I said, now I'm going to need to tell you something because weird things are going to happen. I said, what do you mean? I said, look, can't explain right now, but when we start this we'll know that it's working, because I can only describe it as things will happen and you'll you'll suddenly wonder why that happened. And they kind of look at me and I can remember one of my racing drivers.
Ian Travers:Um, it was quite hot-headed and that's something we just, you know, we have to use the anger but get the hot head in this now. And then he said he was with his um, his girlfriend, um, and they were cooking a nice meal and during the, when they're cooking the meal, they have glasses that are kept on a shelf just above where the cooker hood is and whether the cooker at the vibration anyway, this glass fell off, smashed on the cooker hood and went into the food that they were cooking. Um, and he ran me to tell me this. He says I get it. He said, because six months ago I'd have gone off on one, I'd have completely gone off on one, he said but you know what we did. I said, oh, I don't matter.
Ian Travers:Let's go out for a meal instead. Wow, he said I don't know where that came from, but that's what I think. What happens when you start to tweak these habits. It's like why did that happen? Because that's never happened before. Yeah.
Zoe Greenhalf:Microhabits. That's some spooky little voodoo shit that you're into. Yeah, it makes it sound like that. What have you done to me?
Ian Travers:It does. Yeah, and you know Rich Marsh marsh, one of my clients as well. He was my early racing driver, um, and I think I've I think I actually quote him on my website because he'd got this thing where he wanted to drive. His pipe dream was to to drive at the le mans 24 hour. He wanted to drive that circuit and he got in mind it's going to be like in five years time. And he texted me one evening. He said, mate. He says I don't know what you're doing with my head. He says but I'm going to be at Le Mans next month driving the circuit, and that was like five years ago.
Ian Travers:So I do know, um, that when you do start to control those tiny habits, your behavior will, will change. Um, I'm not saying you suddenly become a different person, but that dialogue inside changes. And when the dialogue inside changes, things change. Yeah, um, because, because they just do, because you you've changed your, your inner view of yourself, you've changed that self-belief and suddenly you start to behave more congruent with the person that you really are. Rather than this story, you tell yourself yeah, there's a couple of things that bother me in life, um, that trigger me, if you will, and that caused me to be the one who does something rather than sit back is I. I don't like seeing other people being put down or other people being limited by other people. I don't. It really irritates me when people say, oh, yeah, but you're never going to do that. Yeah, I hate it because, knowing what I know, I know how damaging that is because, yeah, but at least give them a chance. Um, so, so that's one thing I desperately, when I hear people putting themselves down, I kind of think just let me buy you a coffee, just let me have 10 minutes with you. Um, and you know, I don't want to say, you know, change your, but I'd love to just think about this and then I'll leave you alone forever. I promise so. And then, finally, people being treated unfairly.
Ian Travers:And there's a load of stuff out there at the minute. You know there's so much Help out there, but I think it's so accessible people don't access it. But I think it's so accessible people don't access it. If that sounds crazy, you know you can pick any social platform you like. You know TikTok, all of them, insta, all that kind of thing, and to go and find inspiring quotes and people who are life coaches and people who do NLP which I think are all great, by the way but I think the danger is that people look at that and don't see how it's them, because they think, well, I'm not, I'm not trying to run a marathon, I'm.
Ian Travers:I'm not, I'm not trying to build a new business, I'm just me and I'm just getting on with my life. Uh, and I'm a busy teacher, or I'm a busy mom, or I'm a I and I'm a busy teacher, or I'm a busy mum, or I'm a postman, or whatever it is. I'm just me and I'm having a pretty bumpy, shitty time at the minute because the world tells me that it's not great out there. But that's not for me, because that's only for people who are, that's only for special people who are trying to make a huge difference in their life, and that, I think, is a real problem.
Zoe Greenhalf:That's really interesting because that speaks to me about a different side of accessibility as well, though the fact that you know if you want to actually invest in coaching, oftentimes it's really expensive, so that's sort of the other side of it, but I absolutely get what you're saying. The other side of it. But I absolutely get what you're saying, and sometimes I wonder whether people perhaps don't see how this kind of stuff would benefit them if they don't have a massive goal. You know, I've had these conversations with people and they're like, yeah, but I don't want to run my own business. So I'm like well, it's not just for people who want to run their own business. It's the sense that that you could give more, you can be more. I think it's all about that sort of realising your full potential, and that's going to look different for everybody, and that could look you can still want to realise your potential in whatever field you're in, whether that's somebody who wants to run their own business or somebody who wants to be a postman.
Ian Travers:I think it can be as simple as helping people enjoy their drive to work. It can be as simple as that because your mindset you adopt on the road, you know. So maybe you know you're completely happy in the job you do or maybe it is a frustrating job. So, even more important, that that half an hour, an hour that you spend in the car, just changing the way you you act to what's in front of you, can change your day. If you get in your car and your mindset is I'm in the car because I've got to get to work as quick as I can and on time and everybody else can get out of my face and get out of my way because I haven't had my coffee yet and I'm ready to eat meat. So you kind of get in there and you can see people passively angry because they're in the outside lane and they're immediately pushing up against the person in front of them. How dare you go three miles an hour slower than me because I need to get to work and I just think, god, you are releasing so many bad chemicals into your head. And I just think, god, you are releasing so many bad chemicals into your head. Yeah, if you just adopt maybe a slightly different thing that says well, I'm going to seek to use my journey, so maybe I'm going to kick back and I'm going to drop in the inside lane and I'm going to go about five miles an hour slower, but I'm going to have a good podcast on the way to work. Go and listen to some music that makes me smile. Oh yeah, but you might be late for work. Well, take a bit of responsibility here and leave 10 minutes sooner.
Ian Travers:Then, um, and adopt that drive with the mission of getting something out of that drive rather than it being transactional. Um, so for me, it's that. It's that kind of thing, and I don't think anyone's talking about that. You know, oh, does that mean? Well, how's a life coach going to help me do that? You know, how's getting professional coaching going to help my journey to work? Um, whereas we don't need that. Just just let me put this idea in your head and and see how you go with it. Do you see what I mean?
Zoe Greenhalf:I think sometimes we over complicate do you get those kind of comments um, when you are in you know sort of working in more of like a trainer or coaching capacity, do you meet that kind of resistance with people? Maybe you've gone into a corporate environment and people are sort of like, yeah, but I don't need this.
Ian Travers:Oh, in fact I've just spent a few days on site with one of my longstanding clients and inevitably when you're doing larger programs of work with regular clients, often the people are in the room because they've been told they need to be in the room rather than being in the room because they want to be in the room. And I've had someone this week say to me yeah, I don't buy into this stuff. I thought that's interesting. So, you know, at coffee break, you know I was kind of so, just curious, and it was like, yeah, I agree with all the science, but I just don't see it's relevant.
Ian Travers:People are just people. And I thought, well, you're kind of right, but you're also wrong. Because, in other words, what you're saying is well, I know this stuff's there, yeah, but I don't understand how it makes a difference to my life, because people are just people and people are just people. But, yeah, so most people I find when you explain some of the simple stuff, take something from it, because they suddenly realize, yeah, I do that, maybe I shouldn't do that or maybe I should try that. And it's the curiosity, I think, if you can just sow that seed, but probably in my 12 years I've probably had less people than I can count on one hand who opt out completely.
Zoe Greenhalf:Wow, what credit to you. You're obviously doing your job of making them, helping them to think differently. Yeah, I mean it's interesting.
Ian Travers:Interesting, isn't it? And I suppose this is this is kind of where I've got to now is I, I'm, I'm not afraid to say, look, I'm not, I'm not going to push you down any one particular road. If you've got to fix your car, there isn't one magic tool. There's, there's many ways that you might choose to fix a faulty car or a car that's not performing the way you want it to do. So why would we expect that any one particular flavor of mental fitness help would be the one for you?
Ian Travers:So again, I'm not at all dissing cognitive behavioral therapy, emdr, positive psychology, mindfulness, nlp they're all brilliant, but I think it's a little dangerous to hang your coat on one only. You've got to try the stuff that that works for you, because we are complicated, you know, um. So I think it's a case of when I work with, with people, with groups, what I'm not doing, saying, well, I, it's the gospel, according to travers, you need to do this. I'm actually saying, okay, there's all this stuff out there and this is how it works. So we need to kind of work out what what fits you yeah, yeah, I totally see that.
Zoe Greenhalf:And when you're um in that environment, do you find that you tap into these different kind of methodologies and different techniques? You don't just stick to one or two?
Ian Travers:it's like no, my, it's the one common thread that I have, whoever or whatever the context I'm talking, and I always start with, obviously having had the conversation with someone about what. You know, what's the problem we're trying to fix here? Um, so you know it has to be what are you trying to do? Tell me, tell me about it, what, what are you trying to achieve? Because then at that point there's a real responsibility, I think, on any of us who deal with people, that if we think there are some issues that require help beyond what we can offer, then I think we have a duty of care to to signpost them to other professional help. So, in other words, I I don't profess to be a counselor, a psychotherapist or anything like that, but I will help you think stuff through. So I think there's a so that accepted, um, the approach for me is well, look, this is kind of how the brain works, you know, and fundamentally, what you think about has a huge impact on what you end up doing. So once we've understood that, now let's talk about, so, what you're trying to achieve, and then I'll, you know, call upon um various different methodologies, um, just to try and help um, and that's no different from me. So you know I do all kinds of different stuff and I continue to experiment and try different stuff because I'm curious.
Ian Travers:So, typically, working with someone, you know we'll get on with some, um, some ways of changing their internal dialogue so that it's more helpful to what they're trying to achieve. So we're tweaking and we're um, you know, we're modifying the way they see what lies in front of them. But at the same time, if they're having difficulty, um, shutting up that voice in their head, or difficulty sleeping, or something like that, then we might have a chat about a bit of meditation. We might have a chat about mindfulness. Um, we might have a chat about, you know, how you're sleeping, um, what you're eating and again, I'm not going as far as to recommend a diet to them, but I'm just getting them to think about, um, yeah, so that's kind of what it is and sometimes, yeah, it's a bit of nlp, it's a bit of positive psychology, um, it's a bit of, you know, how do you see the world?
Ian Travers:Should we change that dialogue? Positive behavioral therapy, um, so, yeah, it's, it's all of those. But I think it's really important that people understand, first of all, what are they trying to fix? And secondly, fundamentally, how does the brain operate such that you can then make your decisions yourself as to so? I should probably work on that thought then.
Zoe Greenhalf:Yeah, I had a couple of friends in mind when you were talking about that person in the car. That's, you know, desperate to get to work and the ones I know are not very happy in their jobs, they're desperate to get out and I think actually taking that time in the car and using it for them is a really valuable thing that they can do to improve that little part of their day. Um, but something else that I was thinking about was was that sort of inner critic voice, that sort of says you know, you might say, yeah, but I could leave this job and I could start my own thing, and and the inner critics chirps up and goes well, no, you can't. That's really risky. You know why would you do that? You're not good enough to do that. Who's going to listen to you? Do you deal with those kind of issues?
Ian Travers:Yeah, because I did that myself.
Zoe Greenhalf:Did you?
Ian Travers:Yeah, I was my own worst critic. I probably could and should have started what I do three or four years sooner. I probably could and should have started what I do three or four years sooner, but I wrestled with my internal critic. You know, am I good enough? Just bear in mind, you're, you're part of conforming to this big engine in society and in in general and I am generalizing, which is always dangerous to do, but I do think in general, the way that we are brought up, we are taught to talk ourselves down.
Ian Travers:You know we're. You know average is OK, whatever it is. You know, don't, whatever you do, be extraordinary, because you make everyone else look bad. So you know, average is OK. So you, you know, just keep your head down, do your job, be respectful, be thankful, and and it'll all be fine. Um, so I've, I've got that in the back of my head, thinking who am I to think I can do something better for me? Who am I to think anyone's going to listen to me? And that that hung around for ages. It really did. And and it and it still shows up every now and again.
Ian Travers:You know and then I have to say to myself yeah, but hang on a minute. You've been doing this 12 years. Um, something, a little, a little slither of what you're doing must, must, must be right, because otherwise, you know, the world has a habit of sorting it out if you're not. But yeah, I do. I think self-doubt is huge, as almost by equal measure is overconfidence and arrogance.
Zoe Greenhalf:Really.
Ian Travers:Yeah, I mean, we all like to see this in its extreme, don't we? When we watch things like the X Factor, you know, and someone's been been told they got a fantastic voice and you're going to be something fantastic, and then they open their their mouth and you think, oh my god, the only reason you're on the show is to push the ratings up. So I think it's really. You know, overconfidence is is almost as as damaging to you as underconfidence. But somewhere in there, I think, if you can get to know and befriend that little voice that you get inside you, how do you do that?
Zoe Greenhalf:how did you do?
Ian Travers:god, I I continue. I'll be completely honest. I continue to battle with it and I've tried lots of different things. I've read some very helpful books in my time the chimp paradox and understanding your. Your internal chimp, um jim lawson, taming tigers, getting to know your tiger. You know, are you writing your life story? The chimp paradox and understanding your.
Ian Travers:Your internal chimp, jim Lawson, taming tigers, getting to know your tiger. You know, are you writing your life story? Where's your tiger growling at you? And? And they're all.
Ian Travers:They're all describing this bit of us inside which is the real us. You know, the us that has been shaped up to this point as to who we are, and I think my biggest realization was that we are not our thoughts. That took some getting my head round. Basically, this dialogue that you have in your head when someone says to you that was great, thanks so much for that, you did a super job there and as they walk away, this little sound in your ear goes that wasn't my best, and and that that's. That's the real you, that's the you in there, that's your self-belief, that's, that's, that's that's who you are.
Ian Travers:Um, and I still at times have difficulty separating me from the bit of me that tells stories about me. Does that make sense? And that, I think, is the bit that we struggle with, because you have those moments where you think, yeah, I can do this, this is me, I'm gonna love this, this is my passion, I am gonna find a way making this happen. And then suddenly, the storyteller takes over and says yes, but it probably won't, and this is going to be awful. You're going to embarrass yourself, you're going to not make much money, you're going to look a fool, and so your brain keeps you safe, because what you think about modifies your behavior. So, yeah, that is huge. And if I was to pick one thing, I think you can have incredibly talented people who won't achieve what they could, assuming they want to, because they've talked themselves down.
Zoe Greenhalf:Yes, it's such a shame when that happens.
Ian Travers:It is.
Zoe Greenhalf:I know so many people.
Ian Travers:And this, I suppose, is the reason I keep going. I suppose this is the thing that spurs me on with my podcast, spurs me on with with the business is how do you continue to be relevant? Because you know, the one thing I can't change in my world is that you know I'm 57, white. You know, privileged white, middle-aged, balding male. Um, who the hell is going to listen? Um, and I get that. Um, I really do. So.
Ian Travers:How do you, how do you continue to to try and help people understand how much they get in their own way, without it sounding like you're trying to teach him something? Because that's a conundrum, because I don't like being preached to and therefore my philosophy is always I really don't want to pull someone to one side and say let me tell you something, because that is enough to actually that's my anti-conforming, that's my mischief coming out, because if someone says what you need to do is this, my mischief says no, so I completely get that. Um, so that's why against advice, against this is in show. I've experienced this quite recently as well, and again, this is this little voice in your head thinking am I really right here? So we launched on instagram and tiktok and we're on reels and we've got youtube shorts and all that stuff going on and people say to me oh, you should, you should really be, you know, doing more on linkedin but and I don't want to diss any platform but if I, what I'm trying to do here, what's more important to me is doing the right thing than the figures on a balance sheet.
Ian Travers:Now the business needs to make money so that I can carry on doing what I'm doing, but I'm not doing it to end up with a yacht in the seychelles and I'm doing it because I want to help people and that could be as cool as you think it sounds, but that's actually what drives me. That's why I spent 10 years as a special constable, because I didn't want to sit on the sidelines watching stuff go horribly wrong. I wanted to do something about it. It's why I was a school governor, um, it's it's why I I learned to be learned to be a running coach for no charge, to help people get into rap.
Zoe Greenhalf:Oh, it's all coming out now, Ian. That's all the stuff I'm getting ready to rap up when you throw in all this.
Ian Travers:Well, of course, you see, that's not To me. That's all just transactional stuff, it's just stuff that I've done. How do you make that relevant to people? And that's why I try and put stuff out on other platforms. Yeah, and I will say, people who influence me as well, gary V, gary Vaynerchuk don't know whether you've come across him at all yeah, so he's a very Marmite character. You either love him or hate him, but there's no avoiding the fact that he talks in real good sense. For people who are in my shoes, um, you know, middle-aged um have experienced life before social media and that kind of thing, and he just kind of says if you've got something to say and you think it can make a difference to one person, then you should say it. He said, but most of you won't because you're worried what the rest of the people will think or say absolutely and I thought true.
Ian Travers:So that's again the non-conformist to me, again because I was advised against. Yeah, you don't want to. You don't want to do that because that could be reputationally damaging for you. I don't care what's reputation, I can't spend reputation um. I just want to do the right thing and for me it feels like the right thing to try and be relevant to a different demographic who are going to be the future I think at the end of the day, if you've got enough confidence to trust yourself, then you can go against those kind of views, can't you?
Zoe Greenhalf:you can say, but know I could do it your way, and you're telling me that maybe statistically or financially it's better, but what feels right to me is this other way and I'm going to do that. And I think it takes a special kind of self-trust to be able to say no. I've got this. I'm doing it my way.
Ian Travers:And I've got it wrong. You know, I've, I've, I've made errors of judgment, but I've learned from that and I think I'm better for that. What kind of errors have you made? I've made some, as I've, as I've grown the business, because again we're conditioned that bigger is better, because again we're conditioned that bigger is better, which I question that whole philosophy now anyway, and I've made some choices of people I have worked with over the years, um, which in hindsight were for me, were the wrong decisions. But given the circumstances, again, would I have made the same decision as I made then? Yes, I probably would. So it's only, it's only in hindsight, and I have to.
Ian Travers:What I have to be really careful of and I think this is something else, that is the humankind is to then beat ourselves up over those things that we did, that we thought were wrong. I can't change that. I can only change what I do tomorrow, um, yeah, so you have to live with that um, but that can sometimes cause your self-confidence to ebb and flow, because once you've, you know, once you're licking your wounds after you think you've maybe made a bad decision, that can be really hard to pick yourself back up and get back in the game again, um, but I think the thing that I have learned is that's conforming, because conformity wants you to fail. Um, because you've, you've rode against the flow, and that actually is my savior, because actually that's the thing that actually says come on, get back in the game, modify it, reinvent it, keep swimming upstream, and that's what I do.
Zoe Greenhalf:I love that. Keep swimming upstream. Perfect, ian, it's been such a pleasure chatting to you today. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask you if there's sort of one thing that you would love the listeners to take away from this episode.
Ian Travers:What do you think that might be? I think it would be. If I had to choose one thing. Remember that the stories that you're telling yourself when you are overthinking stuff are works of fiction and that's it. They are only works of fiction. Fiction, they're not real. Um, so be careful when you are making decisions based on the stories that your, your thoughts, are telling you. Um, does that make sense?
Zoe Greenhalf:yeah, yeah it does. I think it's that point of when you are listening to that voice. You sort of need to look for the evidence, don't you to say, well, is that actually real?
Ian Travers:Yeah.
Zoe Greenhalf:Is that going to happen? Well, actually I don't have any evidence to suggest that yeah.
Ian Travers:And then you start to analyse it and realize that it is actually coming from yeah, and it and it's more of your head, it's, it's, it's really like wading through deep mud, because you've probably been having those thoughts for a long while.
Ian Travers:Therefore, even as you try to distance yourself from those thoughts and think that's a story, I'm telling myself you even then, you know you're trying to pull yourself out of the mud and and your, your, your chimp, your tiger, your inner voice, call it what you will is going to drag you back into the mud because saying, yeah, but you're thinking this because it's true, and here's the evidence why it's true, and the evidence will be another story.
Ian Travers:So I think you've got to be brave, so you've got to want to do it, so, whatever it is you kind of to pull yourself out from that cycle. I think you've got to find a thread that you really want to pull on and you've got to just and I remember going through this kind of stuff which is said, okay, what I'm going to do, just for today, right, because I actually believe my story is true, but just for today, I'm going to suspend that belief and I'm going to do it your way, brain. So just for today, all right, I'm going to try not worrying. I'm going to book myself a diary appointment to worry tomorrow, so that I know I'm going to worry but I'm not going to do it today and I'm just going to, I'm just going to give myself the next hour and the next hour. I'm not going to believe that story and that, I think, makes a chink in the armour. But it is only fiction because it hasn't happened yet and it probably won't.
Zoe Greenhalf:Yeah, yeah. And I think, at the end of the day, we are all so much more capable than we think we are. We, we, we tend to get bogged down by these, these voices and these stories in such an incredible way that sometimes it can be hard to see just what we could achieve if we could turn them off.
Ian Travers:It's a lovely little exercise. I did it on a. I was I was chatting to one of my friends and and and colleagues, sam Callahan, on. I went live on Instagram with him a while back and, okay, so you tell yourself what we're going to do. I'm going to ask you to take the biggest breath in you can possibly take. So I want you to really push your tummy out and swell your chest out and take the biggest breath you can possibly take. So we do one, two, three, you do it, and they said, right, take a bit more in. And everybody can take a bit more in. We're protecting ourself, yeah. So when we say so, when we hear, take the biggest breath you can possibly take, even subconsciously, we're going, yeah, but I'm going to keep a bit in reserve.
Zoe Greenhalf:Wow.
Ian Travers:We all do it.
Zoe Greenhalf:Well, you've succeeded in giving me some new things to think about today. That's for sure. Where can everybody tune into your podcast and get to know you a bit better?
Ian Travers:Okay, so the podcast is called One Thought at a Time, so you can find it on um. The video version is on youtube. You can find it on most socials. It's at one thought cast, uh, and if you on all the usual platforms spotify, apple, that kind of thing if you were to search one thought at a time, um, you'll find it there brilliant ian.
Zoe Greenhalf:Thank you so much thank you.
Ian Travers:So it's been, uh, it's been a blast. Thank you very much before you go.
Zoe Greenhalf:Here are this week's episode takeaways. Number one when you feel unhappy or have lost your excitement for something, you need change. Take some action, start to have alternative conversations, connect with new people, try different things, but break that cycle so you can start to look at life from another perspective. Two you are not your thoughts, so be wary of the stories you tell yourself, but the way in which you think is a huge determinant of your success. Three sometimes the greatest changes come from not what we do, but who we spend our time with. People who are a few steps ahead of where you want to be, or with similar interests and ambition, can have a significant influence on what happens next in your life. Four be wary of taking advice from well-meaning people who don't understand your dreams. They want to keep you safe but will often encourage you to play smaller than you're capable of. Five think about how you can be better tomorrow than you were today by changing one tiny thing at a time. Habit building over time with things like cold showering or meditation will stack up gradually so that when you look back 12 months or two years from now, you will literally feel like a different person.
Zoe Greenhalf:Six becoming a better version of yourself is relevant. Whether you've got big ambitions or not. Your mindset can improve your life, whether you're a budding entrepreneur or simply want to enjoy your commute to your nine-to-five job. It's not something reserved just for people wanting to change the world. Seven put more importance on what you do than the labels you have or that others give you. Eight there's no one size fits all approach to mental fitness. Be open to different people, coaching styles and mindset techniques, and you will find that a combination of these things will work for you. Nine turn the volume down on that negative inner voice, because self-doubt will kill your dreams. But if you can befriend that voice and change the inner dialogue, it will change the way you show up and therefore change the way you then behave. Ten make changes easier with fun little challenges such as the gratitude challenge easier with fun little challenges such as the gratitude challenge. Note down one thing you're grateful for every day for 100 days, so you have a book to look back over when you need some extra mindset help.
Zoe Greenhalf:Well, I hope you loved today's episode and it made you think differently or perhaps nudged you into changing something in your life that's not working for you. I'd love to give you a shout out right here on the podcast too. So let me know what you think, what you'd like to hear more of, or how you've been inspired to take bold action. Let's keep in touch over on Instagram at the Mischief Movement, or click the link in the show notes to sign up to my Mischief Mail newsletter, where you'll get exclusive insights on upcoming episodes and your chance to submit questions to future guests. But shh, don't tell anyone, it's our secret. Please keep spreading the word about the podcast. You're doing such an amazing job. Grateful for your five-star ratings on apple podcasts or spotify, which seriously helped my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose mischief over mediocre. Have a great week and keep making mischief.
Ian Travers:Ciao what a lot of stuff. We've covered a lot of ground actually we did, didn't we?
Zoe Greenhalf:I don't know how I'm going to edit this. I haven't got my little team. Charlie, where are you?
Ian Travers:thank you as well for pushing me over the edge as far as doing zoom based stuff, because I think had you not have been in Italy.
Zoe Greenhalf:Oh, pleased to have complicated your life slightly.
Ian Travers:Yeah, absolutely so you have. Thank you for the complication.