Turning Up The Volume on Authenticity and Playfulness With Dr. Mickey James

Ever wished you could recapture the joy and freedom of your playful childhood? Dr Mickey James, a passionate researcher of play at Swansea University and the founder of Girls to the Front, knows how to reignite that lost spark.

Learn more about Mickey's transformation from a rule-abiding child to a rule-breaking adult, a journey that is bound to resonate and inspire you. Listen as she passionately shares her mission to empower young girls to value their unique abilities and dare to dream beyond societal expectations by being unafraid to take up space. We take a closer look at everyday activities and how they harbor the potential for immense joy and self-discovery, especially  when we make room for little acts of rebellion and micro-mischief! 

We dive into the irrefutable role of play in building resilience and self-confidence. Mickey then encourages us all to amplify our voices, live authentically and crank the volume, not only on ourselves but those around us too. It's time to embrace our individuality boldly, ignite our rebellious spirits, and join the playful revolution. Are you ready to make some mischief?!

Chapters

• 0:00 Embrace Playfulness, Unleash Your Inner Rebel
• 4:36 Authenticity and Breaking the Rules
• 8:20 Time is finite
• 17:42 Importance of Play in Daily Life
• 25:52 The Value of Youth Play Activities
• 38:30 Building Resilience and Amplifying Your Voice

Transcript

Mickey James: 0:00

No matter what you do, whatever kind of what you do day to day, whatever you do nine to five, whatever you do five to nine, like you have so much value to add to the world, so turn up the volume and like do it loud, do it authentically and exist.

Zoe Greenhalf: 0:16

Hello, it's Zoe and welcome or welcome back to the Mischief Movement podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more hell yeah in their life. Consider this your one way to get out of mid-life mediocrity towards fun and positive impact via playful disruption. Wouldn't you love to wake up and feel like a total badass? How about breaking some rules, throwing two fingers up to society and doing more of the things you love? I'm talking full on freedom, adventure and those meaningful connections I know you've been craving. Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it. I'll be picking the brains of some true game changers and mischief makers so I can share what I find and hopefully inspire you to shake things up, do more of what makes you feel alive and boldly rebel against the ordinary. I've no idea what I'm doing, to be honest, but I've got a mission and I'm here to start a movement. It's going to be quite the adventure. Care to join me? Ok, here goes In today's episode, I have the absolute pleasure to be joined by Dr Mickey James, researcher of play at Swansea University and fearless founder of Girls to the Front, a movement encouraging teenagers and young women to embrace who they are, love their quirks and amplify their voices.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:38

But if you're a guy listening to this, don't be put off. We'll also discuss your vital role in supporting women's growth, and we delve into the subject of play and the value it brings, even in the unlikeliest of places. If you're guilty of taking life too seriously, this episode will challenge you to rediscover your playful side. If you've ever felt like a misfit, we'll change the way you feel about yourself and help you to realise that you're in great company. And if you're curious about whether or not the time is right to start something new or pick up an old passion, take this as the sign you've been looking for, because you absolutely have value and magic to bring into the world. Well, this week I'm joined by Dr Michaela James, who I think would prefer if I just called her Mickey, but she can tell me.

Mickey James: 2:26

Absolutely. Yeah, when you sent me that email I actually was like, oh, this is really interesting. I never really think of my name. Does anyone think of their name? But when I said, when people are like, oh so my, my grown up name is Dr Michaela James, but literally no one in my life calls me Michaela and I don't think I've ever been called Michaela, unless it's in a weird capacity, like I literally think I was born and just called Mickey. So sometimes it feels really like sticky to be like oh, dr Michaela James, so Michaela, Mickey, whatever's fine. But yeah, most people just refer to me as Mickey or even shorter, Mick. What would you prefer? I would prefer Mickey. Mickey is, Mickey's great, mickey's great.

Zoe Greenhalf: 3:05

So, having said that, let me ask you then what is your mischief, Mickey?

Mickey James: 3:10

My mischief oh, what a good question. So my mischief is trying to create a rebellion, basically against what is kind of the norms and accepted version of being a girl. So my main thing, my main kind of passion project at the moment is trying to empower young girls to use their voice, take up space and be their own brand. So that's my mischief, but I kind of do that in lots of different ways, which I think all those different ways are quite mischievous. So, yeah, we do lots of movement, lots of zine making, lots of creation, lots of trying to just encourage and advocate for you, knowing that you have value.

Mickey James: 3:49

So, whatever that value is, you know you might think that whatever you're doing is quite mundane and boring, but trying to see, like the magic in the like what you, wow, it's not even mundane Because I'm like no, it's so magic, it's amazing. But you know, like things that you just do every day. So people that just like doodle and draw, I'm like that's magic, like do more of that, put that out into the world. People that are really good at writing or documenting or just existing, like you have so much like infinite value. So just put that out into the world, like talk to people and things like that. So so yeah, so yeah. I guess my mischief is just encouraging people to also be quite mischievous.

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:27

I think we're on a similar mission so that bodes well. So where does that come from then?

Mickey James: 4:33

Oh, again, really good question. So I just think that as a kid I was like quite rule. I was very strict with rules. I think when I reflect on like why was I growing up? I think I was very much someone that with a dear to what I'd been told to, and I was like really careful about navigating those rules. So I spent a lot of time trying to like not be the most authentic version of myself because I was playing to a certain rules, and particularly through high school.

Mickey James: 5:02

Yeah, I think that I spent a lot of time just trying to fit into certain people's boxes because that's what the rules kind of dictated to me and I feel like I'd missed out on some of like the magic parts of me, the best parts of me, because I was trying to like follow those rules so much. So yeah, so it was kind of like, yeah, stem from there. And then I think when I kind of hit my late twenties, that's when I was like no, I'm just pulling the pin on being the most authentic version of me, because I see the now or never and I was just lucky enough to be in the right place, surrounded by the right people who were just super supportive. So I feel like everyone's got multiple iterations of themselves, but I think I finally got to the version that I'm like yeah, this is me, this is who I am and I'm really comfortable with that. And now I think I'm like a version of me that, like a 15 year old Mickey would look at and be like, yeah, she's really cool, she does really cool stuff and she's just doing everything that I really wanted to do, but I was too scared to break the rules. And now I'm just trying to encourage young girls to see that before I saw it. So, like trying to make them see it now.

Mickey James: 6:07

So when they're 14, 15, and they're navigating this really tricky part of their lives, I'm trying to be like, yeah, just do it now. Like, see it now. Like, if you love this type of music, like go all in on that type of music. Like, if you love it so much, start a band. Like there's no one telling you you can't do that. I know if you, if you see yourself as wanting a career in the creative arts, like go for it. Like double down, don't play by the rules. And like do a degree in something that you don't care about, just because, like that's what the rules tell you to do and in fact, don't do a degree, like just go straight from school and like do something.

Mickey James: 6:37

So, yeah, it's all about like a lot of what you'll see from girls to the front, especially if you know me, like what you'll see on social media is a lot of like note to selves, a lot of creating stuff that I needed when I was younger and like a lot of reflection on like, yeah, kind of the messages and stuff that I needed to hear. So, yeah, I think the way it's not weird, but like the thing with girls to the front is that it's a lot of like this is what a younger Mickey needed to hear. So I run everything through the filter of like what did a younger Mickey need? What did like the ruler doing, too scared to kind of break outside the box? What did that Mickey need? Cause?

Zoe Greenhalf: 7:14

there are lots of girls that need that. Oh yeah, I can totally, I can totally empathize with that, totally. And I think, to a certain extent, there's a lot of people who still feel like that, and they might be in their twenties, in their thirties, in their forties, and there's still that part of them that's desperate to not adhere to the rules and think a little bit differently, but they're just too scared, and not just scared, but like set in their ways. It's almost like well, I've got to, I've got this far. Doing it this way, I can't see myself ever really changing and I find that a bit sad because I don't think it's ever, it's never too late to turn around and go. Well, actually, I don't really want to be that person, I want to be this person. And why can't I?

Mickey James: 7:57

Because exactly, yeah, a hundred percent. And so, um, I had to. Prior to starting girls to the front, I had a podcast with a really good friend of mine called Owen and we it's called Chopwood Carriott. It's actually still available. This is not this is like a plug for an old podcast I did, Um, it still exists. We just haven't recorded in a while. But with my friend Owen, and we coined a phrase um, time is finite and everyone you love is going to die. So we'd finish every podcast with that.

Mickey James: 8:20

And then I ended up last year getting time as finite tattooed on my ankle, because it's just a reminder that you have got a finite amount of time to exist in this world and you need to kind of like the more you become comfortable with the idea that that time is slipping away and you're not going to repeat certain things and you're only going to have X amount of birthdays or X amount of Christmases. So if you waste time being like, oh, but I don't want to do that yet, because you know I've always done it this way, or you know I can't do that because of X, y and Z, or you know I'm in my 40s, I can't learn to skateboard, oh, I can't do that now, like, but time is finite, so you've got to do it. Like you've got to go at things with like both hands and be like if it's not now, just do it. You know, get time is finite tattooed on your ankle and then you're constantly running filter of being like okay, time is fine, I got to do this, it's now.

Mickey James: 9:16

It's now.

Zoe Greenhalf: 9:16

Yeah, I've got on my wrist. I've got pura vida, which is Spanish for pure life. It's something that they say in Costa Rica. I went there many, many years ago as a volunteer and I just loved the vibe of just. It just means it's pure life and I just thought I totally resonate with that. I'm going to get it tattooed on me.

Mickey James: 9:37

Similar thing yeah, I think there's different versions of it for everyone. I think the one that me and Owen coined was like quite aggressively, like time is finite and everyone you love is going to die. And there are a couple of podcast episodes where you can see my discomfort in, because Owen challenged me a lot around the idea of being like you know, you've only got like 15 Christmases with your nan and you're like huh, and you can like hear me being like, oh my God, yeah, but like there are many different versions of you know time is finite. I think, like in Stoicism, it's memento mori. You know you've got your vision that you resonated with. I think everyone can. There is a version that I think would resonate with lots of different people, but I think once you find it, it becomes really like yeah, okay, this is where I've got to double down it and things start to click and like, when you get it tattooed as well, it's like a constant filter that you run Everything. I'm sure you do it as well.

Mickey James: 10:27

Like some days you'll be like making a cup of tea and then you look down you're like, okay, yeah, like this is going to be the best cup of tea I've ever made. It can feed into loads of stuff. Like I think sometimes I get worried that, like when I'm like talking to people, I'm like, yeah, but time is finite. Like people like oh my God, so I need to book like three years away, and like a dream country, like I just need to go live that existence, I'm like, no, it's also about seeing like the magic and every day, like you know, you can make the best cup of tea and be super present while you drink it. Like put your phone down, just sit in the garden, or like sit in your house and be like holy shit, like I got a fucking house, like that's really cool. So yeah, it's like all of those things. But like as soon as you find that filter to run things through, I feel like it's quite a game changer.

Zoe Greenhalf: 11:09

And then you're like okay, yeah, I think another one of the things that I heard you say that I really loved was about turning the volume up. This idea of not hiding away but literally amplifying who you are. That really resonated a lot.

Mickey James: 11:26

Yeah, like trying to live authentically and live loudly. So again, this is kind of like a note to self from when I was younger, I spent so much time being quiet and like, if you look at like my school reports and things like that, a lot of them are like you know, mickey is doing really well, but she's just really quiet and she probably would do better if she contributed more to discussions. So like, yeah, turning up the volume is definitely something that I'm like yeah, I needed to hear that when I was younger and just being able to like celebrate those bits about you and like being so unapologetic about those like magic bits that you're not scared to talk about them. Yeah, just turn up the volume.

Mickey James: 12:04

Like I love music too, so it just like massively resonates with the idea of like you know the amount of times that like I've listened to music and I'm like trying to turn up the volume louder than the headphones will go because I'm like this song is so good, like this song hits me, so it just applies everywhere. And then also, I think it translates really well into being like you know you can turn up the volume for other people as well, so you know you can also be yeah, like I call it being a lighthouse, so like you can be a lighthouse which helps other people then see that they can shine too and you know they can turn up the volumes for yourself, for themselves as well. So, yeah, it's, yeah, I'm really proud of that phrase.

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:42

I mean, it's not just a music fan as well. Yeah, Is there like have you got a song that really every time you hear it just literally lights you up?

Mickey James: 12:52

So there is a song that just instantly came into my mind. So I love anything with like an extreme build and it like a song that like just keeps building, building, building. Then like it pulls and it explodes and you're like, oh, this is it. So there's a song by Latterman and it's called Yo Get Into it and honestly, there's everything about it. So I found Latterman like this year or late last year and honestly their music is amazing and like listening to them.

Zoe Greenhalf: 13:20

I'm going to get on Spotify when I finish this.

Mickey James: 13:23

Absolutely. But that song will stop me in my tracks every single time. Like that song is like such a game changer for me. There's also another song by Tushé Amore -Just Exist, and that song hits me in so many different levels because it literally I feel like it's someone kind of singing back how I feel about existing and about how there's like so many different, how there's like so much the burden of existing like is in, like trying to be the best version of you and trying to answer big questions like you know how do you want to be remembered, like what legacy do you want to leave? And then like that being such a crippling question.

Mickey James: 14:01

But as soon as you kind of like find some comfort, like comfortable, nothing being authentic and you know existing loudly and turn up the volume, then you can kind of like be like okay, this is it. So they're kind of two songs that I'm like they give me like this big like and they're. They're the exact songs that I was thinking of and I was like trying to turn the music up and you literally can't get it as loud as it will go. She's like my phones don't give enough for this. I need it louder.

Zoe Greenhalf: 14:25

Do you think about those questions? Sometimes you know about what your legacy might be or what this is all about. You know the big stuff.

Mickey James: 14:34

Yeah, quite a lot actually, like I think about kind of I want to leave the world a better place, like I want to leave some sort of mark on the world. And I spoke in this week's podcast about kind of. You know, I'm not scared to say that I want girls to front to change the world and I want girls to front to exist globally and I want it to be like a community and an ethos and a way of life. So if I can leave that legacy then yeah, that's, that's like the dream, that's the goal.

Mickey James: 15:04

But I think about it quite a lot like especially with like conversations with people and like your kind of interactions and even with the small things like how you speak to strangers and smiling at strangers and things like that, like you kind of don't know what people are going through, you don't know what's going to happen and you know if I just I am a non confrontational person anyway, but you know, like the idea of having an argument with someone and that's like the lasting impression they have of you, like that. Those things like eat at me quite a lot. So, yeah, I just try and like now exist with the idea of being like just be a lighthouse. Live your act, like. Do live your values by actions, like just live authentically and then the best version of you and whatever you leave behind will be that best expression of you. But yeah, it's quite, it's quite deep and it's quite like a thing.

Zoe Greenhalf: 15:56

It's quite, yeah, but yeah, something that I'm always like okay, like you know, you want to leave this world a better place and I love to talk about this stuff because, you know, my dream is that somebody listening will just hear one, one tiny snippet of an interview, one, one little sentence, and it will make them stop in their tracks and really think about something differently. And that could be that one spark that then, you know, causes them to change something really dramatic in their life. And so you know, anything that comes out of these conversations where I think there's room for people to reflect on something and kind of go actually I hadn't thought about it quite like that, or I've heard that before, but this time it really hit in a different way. Yeah, I get really sort of like excited and enthusiastic about that kind of stuff.

Mickey James: 16:43

Yeah, I love that and I love that, like you know, the kind of ethos that you've got is around like a little acts of rebellion and mischief that you can cause in your everyday and that's the kind of catalyst for living life and you know, life changing stuff, you know. But like little things will add up to massive things and I love the idea of like you can create mischief and magic every single day, but like pulling the pin on those and like trying to like pull out what that might mean to you. So, yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, I can't wait to speak to you because I feel like, yeah, it's really well aligned with what we're both kind of talking about.

Zoe Greenhalf: 17:20

Absolutely, but as much as mine is. I wouldn't like to use the word side hustle. It's a passion. It's definitely a project on the side of a part-time job. It's my understanding that Girls to the Front is also a project of yours and that actually you are working in a slightly different capacity. Do you want to go into what else is?

Mickey James: 17:41

that you do. Yeah, so my nine to five is I'm a research officer at Swansea University, so I research children's health and well-being. So the best way to describe what I do day to day is and some people this will make people's brain really hit but imagine writing your dissertation all the time. So some people are like that sounds like the most horrific job of all time. And some people are like, sounds great, you're basically a full-time student. So yeah, I'm not, I don't live that lifestyle, but yeah, so that's just the best way of explaining it. So I research children's health and well-being. I do it quite broadly speaking, but I specialize in play and physical activity. So my whole life I've done a lot of kind of like sport related and physical activity related roles and yeah, I've just managed to kind of navigate life and end up here. So, yeah, I've done my, I've done my doctor. So, yeah, you can call me doctor, dr Micheal, but it does come with a caveat of I'm not a useful doctor. I cannot help you in any medical situation.

Zoe Greenhalf: 18:42

Well, in my mind, you're a doctor of play and I think that you can give me some kind of tips and advice, I'm hoping, from your research on the play. My, I mean, my thing is that I want to encourage people to, yeah, to make the micro mischief, to find the small joys in every day and to generally approach things through the lens of having fun. When we put fun first, I think it just puts a different spin on everything. I try to live what I preach as much as possible, but sometimes I do feel like just the weight of general responsibilities as a parent and, yeah, life in general sometimes gets really heavy and it can feel quite difficult to to find that playful side. Have you got any thoughts about how I can pull that out? Maybe, yeah.

Mickey James: 19:41

Yeah, ok, I think I can so. So we often think of play as what children do. So we kind of associate it with early years education. We associate it with children under the age of five really, and that's the only time we really value it. We see that as kind of a key part of development. But once children hit kind of year one, year two, that's when the kind of play advocacy side in society just like disappears. So we then kind of dismiss it as something that's like messing around or disruptive or anti social. We don't kind of give it the weight that it deserves. So play is anything that's freely driven and intrinsically motivated. So the definition of play lends itself to so much.

Mickey James: 20:27

It's not necessarily what you might see children do with like building blocks or playing tag or anything like that, like you can play in like micro sessions with with whatever you've got. So in an adult capacity that might mean, you know, going for a run, you know, and going out in nature. That might mean talking and conversing with your friends. That might mean doodling or doing something with your hands. It can also mean like going to the gym and swinging off stuff and going upside down and swinging from ropes. It has such a broad definition, but I think the best way to kind of overcome the barrier that we have at the moment is to see it as like an essential part of life and development and well being. So, you know, you're talking about like fun and, yeah, fun should be absolutely at the forefront of everyone's minds, because fun equates to happiness and happy people thrive. So, as long as you kind of put that as the kind of caveat, then yeah, like that's the definition of play that we need to tap into, more than the idea that it is like messy and unstructured and scary for adults.

Mickey James: 21:36

Because, you know, some of my research has been around teenagers, so age like 13, 14. And we did a piece of research in 2018. And the findings from that suggested that young people don't necessarily want sport and in schools, the idea of doing sport and prescriptive activity was switching a lot of young people off. So we asked them what they would recommend and they made some recommendations around more choice, less cost, more kind of, you know, designing existing facilities with them in mind, making them feel welcome, things like that. And when you boil it down to, it becomes unstructured fun and social activity, which you can also tie into the definition of play. So you know you've got children asking for it, you've got young people wanting it and you want adults like desperately trying to seek the fun in life. So, yeah, like there are so many ways you can kind of tap into it really quickly. And it's also finding what works for you. Like not everybody wants to go to a space and then swing off a rope but at the same time some people might want to just go and run as fast as they can down the hill or, like you know, engage in something like that.

Mickey James: 22:48

Another amazing one that I do is like going in the sea. So there's an element of, like cold water exposure is a bit of discomfort that you can seek every day. But you know, when it's sunny and the waves are coming, like there is, you just literally resort back to being a little kid, like you kind of want to see if the waves, you want to be in there, you like ducking and diving under the waves and doing all this sort of stuff. So yeah, it's just kind of like finding the play that works best for you, but understanding that that definition doesn't equate to like devaluing it, like we really, really need to value it and that you can do it in like micro-sessions. You can literally like the idea of just grabbing a piece of paper and doodling something, just because you fancy it, or writing something, or, you know, just being out in nature, like the next time you're out in nature, just like grab onto a branch, like do, like try and see where you can climb to.

Mickey James: 23:39

Or, you know, join in with your kids. You know, ask them what they're up to, like let the kids look like really flip it on its head. That's what I love about play is that you can really mess about with the power dynamics with, like, adults and children, and like you can let children design the activities. You know children can lead the play. You can ask them what they're up to and then join in. So, yeah, there's lots of different ways, but children really are the experts on this. Children and young people know exactly how to play and be present while they play. So the best persons to probably answer this question would be a child.

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:13

Yeah, Only to ask my kids in that case.

Mickey James: 24:16

Absolutely, absolutely.

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:18

The doctor from the university couldn't answer the question, so I'm asking to you my little six year old, yeah, 100%.

Mickey James: 24:25

And it just. I think the key thing for me is that it means different things to different people.

Mickey James: 24:30

Yeah, yeah so where I find that I play best. So I have the privilege and the luxury to be able to access a gym space that is on the same ethos as me. So when I go there I can do lots of climbing, I can do lots of like rolling and hand standing and swinging, so I can. I'm able to access that. But also, like I when I go out for a walk with the dog, I'll like set myself a lot of challenges, like I don't know, I'll like go up, like try and do a pull up on a tree, or I'll like climb a tree or like run really fast down a hill or you know sort of things like that, where I can just really tap into like kind of like childlike feeling. But yeah, that doesn't work for everyone. So it's kind of like exploring and not being afraid to look silly sometimes.

Zoe Greenhalf: 25:14

Absolutely. But now I'm curious did did the research come from a need from you that was like I really need to explore this idea of play because I need to incorporate it more? Or were you already a kind of playful person, was like this is just an extension of who I am, because I mean from the outside. I can only imagine that researching something like this would then have a positive impact on your personal life, because you can then see things from a completely different perspective.

Mickey James: 25:47

Yeah. So actually, interestingly, this research came from. At the time I had just started a new role and it was a big project to look at ways that sports could be better embedded. So the research had been funded by the British Heart Foundation and it was looking at giving young people a choice over the activities that they want to do, and the whole thing was overcoming the barrier of cost. And it was about six months in.

Mickey James: 26:16

I was like, yeah, this is not going the way that any of us thought it was going to go, because we've let young people completely design this intervention, like they've ran it, in terms of what they wanted to see and what they wanted to do. So they were asking for things like Parkour to be bought into their schools so they can access Parkour coaching or Parkour. They did some dance classes, but lots of them did things like bought gym memberships, went to water parks, played laser tag. When we got to the end and we were kind of doing the full evaluation, we realised that actually everything that these young people wanted was under the kind of realm of play, and then I was like this is super interesting. So then, like all of my kind of research started taking this massive tangent into play.

Mickey James: 27:01

So I'd always been bought up as someone that really valued sport. I had been playing in sports teams my whole life. I had just finished, kind of I just stopped playing rugby, for like I'd been playing rugby for like five years at the time. I just stopped that. And then I was like, ok, so sports obviously going to be the answer, like it's giving me infinite value, so young people should want to do that. And then when I was like, oh no, they actually just want to play, I was like this is really eye-opening. And now that I've done that research and it's been like five years since we've come to those conclusions, I'm like yeah, of course. Like, and now I'm all in on the idea of like play is the most valuable thing that we can do.

Mickey James: 27:42

Sport is cool, but it's not for everyone. And there is like problematic areas of sport in terms of some sporting cultures and you know the kind of misogyny that goes on and the fact that it's very still patriarchal and it's very suspicious of some women in certain sports. Yeah, so yeah, you get that kind of end of it where you're not ever going to really see girls engaging with lots of things. So yeah, but play just gives young people so much choice and freedom and space to fail but not look silly. A space to be so short, a space to hang out Like I can't like.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:13

If I was going to list everything I think plays beneficial for I think the list would be exhaustive basically I think, yeah, I mean, I totally get that and I think the way that I enjoy being playful is it gives, like you said, it gives you the freedom to fail and you just kind of pass it off. It's not like you put the pressure on you to do a really good job, because it's just it's play and it's okay. And I think so many things, so many different scenarios would benefit from approaching them from that perspective, from just this idea of well, it doesn't matter, it's just it's play. I don't want to say just play, because that kind of plays it down, then it's important, but it's got a fun side, so if it goes wrong, it doesn't matter.

Mickey James: 28:59

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, though, because you want to say, oh, it's just playing Like, it just is this thing because it has no real weight to it. And I think the problem that lots of kind of people at the top don't like about play is that it's not quantifiable, so you can't put a measure of success on play. You can only really say if people are engaged in it. So in school settings, you know schools are very much target driven, but you're not going to be able to assess whether they're hitting play targets based on young people's like skills within play, because it doesn't really like require skill and you can't test play because, but you can like test the results of play, so well being, you know physical literacy, all that sort of stuff like that but play itself is like not, you're not able to quantify it.

Mickey James: 29:47

So I think that's lots of people's problem with it from the top definitely is like it's not, it's not a measurable target. But yeah, like it is just play Like, you can literally just do it Like. You know there's no barriers, no skill and yeah, so much space to fail and then learn and then fail again. And yeah, I think that's the biggest thing I love about it is the ability to fail and not look silly.

Zoe Greenhalf: 30:10

So can I ask you then, is there something that springs to mind where you've totally taken on board that attitude and you've approached it with that mindset? I'm like failing, because for me it's the podcast, definitely I've gone well, just treat it like a game because, just you know, focus on the fact that it's really fun and then it takes the pressure off, the fact that you know your scheduler is about starting and you know, if you do fuck it up, well, maybe it's okay. So yeah, just to you, whether there's something that you've approached with a kind of play for eye yeah.

Mickey James: 30:47

So I think kind of the content that I create for girls to the front a lot of it is like I love your content.

Zoe Greenhalf: 30:52

It's brilliant. Thank you.

Mickey James: 30:54

That's really kind of you to say so. A lot of it will be, though, like, oh, I've just I've got an idea, I'm just going to do it, like let's see what happens. Or like will this resonate with anyone? And like we're saying at the start, like you don't create it necessarily to resonate with hundreds and thousands of people, but if it does resonate with one person, then that's awesome.

Mickey James: 31:10

But like, yeah, like playing around with content and kind of seeing what works, what doesn't work, what engages people, what doesn't engage with people, like that's a really kind of good way I've learned about like failing, but not necessarily failing, but like trying stuff out and not being scared of kind of doing that. I do a lot of it with like writing for the blog like as well, like I do really enjoy the process of writing and, again, if it resonates with one person, that's awesome. But also just the kind of ability to like go in, don't overthink it, don't edit it, don't go back, like once it exists, it exists. Like just play around with it, like it's going to have value to someone, because you have loads of value, like your voice has so much value in the world.

Zoe Greenhalf: 31:48

So yeah, but no, I do. I do like your content and I do like see your videos and your reels and I'm like, oh, that's really cool. Do you do them all like yourself? Do you just set up the camera and film yourself? Oh, that's brilliant.

Mickey James: 32:01

Yeah, a lot of them. Or if there's anywhere you can see someone that's holding a camera or you can see that like I'm like hands free but the cameras move in, that'll be my friend, owen. So Owen is like the most supportive human on earth and like, I'll be honest, girls to the front wouldn't exist without Owen. So yeah, it's really so. This is a thing that I have quite a lot of like tension with with Girls to the front is that sometimes I'm like, okay, so it's a feminist driven, like a feminist ethos driven movement, but my biggest supporters and advocates have been men. So, like my partner, carrie, is like unconditionally and relentlessly supportive and he's never he has never like tried to reel me in. He's like unconditionally loved seven iterations of me and is like, yeah, let's just go like do the thing. And then Owen is like my best friend. He's like 10 years older than me but like we hang out every day, we call each other every day and he was the one that like introduced me to punk music. So now we just like we just listened to that together. Like I wouldn't listen to Lattiman or Touche Maury if it wasn't for Owen, but he was like you would be a really good person to advocate for young girls. And I was like, okay, right, yeah, okay, maybe I'll do this. And he was like, yeah, you should absolutely do this. So he pushed me to start and I remember I was like I don't know what to call it, like I'm really struggling on the name, and he was like, okay, like let's think about this.

Mickey James: 33:27

And I just started getting into like feminist punk music and a lot of the kind of scene in that is around, so like Bikini, kale and people and bands like that that were driving it, like Riot Girl in the early 90s, they like tell girls to get to the front, like their thing would be like girls to the front, like let's go, like create safe spaces for women. So we were like, yeah, of course, let's call it that. And then about like it must have been like six months into me starting girls to the front, we went to see a band called Petrel Girls, who are phenomenal, and I stood there and Ren screamed girls to the front like as loud as she could and I was like, yeah, this is exactly it, like this is awesome, like this is exactly what everything is. And it was at that moment like I'd already been delivering for six months. But it was that moment where I was like, fuck yeah, like, this is the movement, this is what I want to be a part of.

Mickey James: 34:22

So yeah, yeah.

Zoe Greenhalf: 34:26

But I mean anyway, feminism doesn't mean just being female 100% and I have to.

Mickey James: 34:32

That was one of my biggest things about creating my own content was like oh, yeah, but like the bands I listen to. Yeah, I do listen to a lot of female front-ed bands, but a lot of my key kind of the life-changing music that I've had have been male front-ed and it's like the idea of being like oh, but I'm too scared to say about that. And I had a bit of like a wobble where I was like oh, like a lot of my stuff is so like oh, but a boy has helped me do this. Or like you know, like with the content, when you just ask like who helps is like yeah, it's Owen, and then I'm like oh, but then I'm like oh, a boy helped me, but like he's like him and carrying my partner are like the best, some of the best feminists I know.

Zoe Greenhalf: 35:09

So I think that's brilliant. I think that is absolutely brilliant because it just creates a bigger impact. I think the fact that they're not women yeah, If you turn that on its head, you know it's this idea of feminism affects everybody. It's not just about being female, helping other women. It's a movement because it affects everybody.

Mickey James: 35:35

Exactly, and you have to have men as part of that conversation.

Zoe Greenhalf: 35:39

Yeah.

Mickey James: 35:39

You omit men it's is just always going to be women trying to do stuff for women, but with a complete marginalisation of this group, you don't exclude them from everything. So I also think it's just a good thing to like showcase positive role models for lots of different people and how they appear in spaces. So, yeah, I had a meltdown but then I was like no, no, no, like I've got to live authentically, Like this is how I live my life, so I'm going to show this. So yeah, but yeah, but yeah. So, long story short, I do most of my own content, but every time there's like a camera being used, like and you can see a handheld, that's probably Owen.

Zoe Greenhalf: 36:19

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Mickey James: 37:35

And I think now you've kind of asked me that question, I've thought about it. It's really helped me in my job. So as a researcher you get a lot of knockbacks and a lot of reviewing from people that don't necessarily connect with you on a human level. So like the process of publishing papers and getting like grants to have to do your research, so you'll submit them to like peer review and then sometimes the comments back are so crushing. But, if you like, apply the thing of like no, we're playing around with this idea, like we're moving, like you know, let's try again, let's fail, let's try again, let's fail, let's try again. Like let's keep going back to it. It's really kind of helped me develop a level of resilience that again I don't think a 15-odd Mickey would believe that I had that that's really, that's really interesting, like that correspondence between play and resilience.

Zoe Greenhalf: 38:30

I wouldn't have put the two things together.

Mickey James: 38:34

I think it's huge Like so we so in the gym we coach kids and we coach teenagers and I think a big thing around that play idea is like building resilience to keep trying and that sometimes things don't work out and sometimes you know you won't be able to climb the thing that session or you won't be able to lift that thing this session, but keep going, keep going, keep going, because one day the barbell will move or one day you're just going to jump off the top of that and then you'll be like oh my God, I did that thing.

Mickey James: 39:07

And then you can just apply it. Like I think if you can build up that resilience, like you can apply it to so many different areas in your life, like resilience is a really key asset, I think, for young people to have, especially in today's climate. You know, socially, politically, I think it's something that we could really benefit young people from kind of having. But we dismiss the fact that play could be a fundamental part of building that resilience, although now you've said that, now you've explained it, it seems so obvious.

Zoe Greenhalf: 39:39

Yeah, I hadn't. I mean, yeah, I hadn't put the two things together, but now you've illustrated it that way I can totally see the connection.

Mickey James: 39:48

Yeah, and like watching like little children, like navigating things, like building blocks and like building things, and you can see that like once it doesn't work, the ability to just keep going and trying and if something doesn't, if something falls down, you can see them like trying to work it out. So it's like you can see that kind of happening already, that resilience building. But, like I said earlier, like well, if they get to like five years old or like year one, and you're like right, let's stop doing that, let's now just focus on me telling you why you're writing the letter A wrong, then all of a sudden, like you can see why that resilience starts to break down then, because they're not having that freedom to explore it for themselves. But yeah, I think it's a really fundamental part of building building resilience.

Zoe Greenhalf: 40:28

Yeah, If you could leave the listeners with one kind of key point from what we've talked about, what do you think they'd hope? What do you hope that they would go away with?

Mickey James: 40:41

This is a big one, okay, what would I? So turning up the volume is like the thing I'm going to try and get listeners to take away from this. So, no matter what you do, whatever kind of what you do day to day, whatever you do nine to five, whatever you do five to nine, like you have so much value to add to the world, so turn up the volume and do it loud, do it authentically and exist and talk to people about it, challenge people based on what you know, and if you feel like you've got something to contribute, speak up and contribute. But, yeah, turn up the volume. I know that you can turn up the volume for other people. I'm going to cheat now.

Mickey James: 41:22

Girls To The Front has three core values, I'd say. So turn up the volume using your voice and being your own brand. And I feel like turn up the volume lends itself to all of those things, because if you be your own brand, you automatically turn up the volume on who you are most authentically are If you use your voice. It's a very kind of, it's a very obvious way of turning up the volume. But, yeah, just live your life, document stuff, talk about stuff, contribute. Like I just said, you have infinite amounts of value and if time is fine, I don't waste it being quiet Like add to the world and leave. Try and leave the world a better place. Yeah, be a lighthouse and exist.

Zoe Greenhalf: 42:05

I love that. I think that's such a nice thing, a nice message to end on. Thank you so much for this conversation, Mickey. I've loved it.

Mickey James: 42:13

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've loved it too. Yeah, maybe we'll reverse the tables and we'll get you on the Gils, the front podcast.

Zoe Greenhalf: 42:19

Oh, that would be fun.

Mickey James: 42:20

Yes, but yeah thank you so so much for having me. I've loved it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 42:24

Amazing. Oh, thank you. You have a really a really like infectious enthusiasm when you talk about this stuff. You really do. I know you talked about the lighthouse concept, but I feel like you really do shine when you talk about these things. I can see how passionate you are about them.

Mickey James: 42:42

Yeah, like I really am and I just like I always am, just like I hope it just comes across in that way, absolutely does. That means so much Like thank you so much.

Zoe Greenhalf: 42:53

Oops, I totally forgot to grab Mickey's details before I ended our conversation. Please forgive me. Mickey, you can follow girls to the front over on Instagram at girls to the front that's @G R R R L S TTF, and from there read her brilliant blog. That will remind you just how awesome you really are. Now here are my 10 takeaways from this empowering episode with Mickey.

Zoe Greenhalf: 43:17

1. you have value and bring magic into the world. 2. pull the pin on being the most authentic version of you, because it's either now or never. 3. we all have multiple iterations of ourselves, but if we keep learning and growing, we'll find the version that feels most comfortable. 4. time is finite. Sounds scary, really scary, but the more you become comfortable with the idea, the more you will run at life and learn to see the magic in every day. 5. live loudly, turn up the volume on yourself and amplify the voices of those around you. 6. find that phrase or song that captures how you feel about existing and helps you to become the best version of you. 7. live your values by your actions and whatever you leave behind will be the best expression of you. 8. play means different things to different people, but anything where we can tap into that childlike feeling of freedom and sense of joy will boost our overall happiness. 9. approaching things that feel challenging with a playful mindset allows us to take the pressure off, make mistakes without feeling silly and build the resilience to keep going. And number 10. you know this one already but little acts of rebellion will add up to massive things, and you can create mischief and magic every single day.

Zoe Greenhalf: 44:47

I hope you loved today's episode and it made you think differently or perhaps nudged you into changing something in your life that's not working for you. I'd love to give you a shout out right here on the podcast too, so do let me know what you think or you'd like to hear more of, or how you've been inspired. Let's keep in touch over on Instagram at the mischief movement Ah, it's changed, did you see that? Or click the link in the show notes to sign up to my mischief mail newsletter, where you'll get exclusive insights on upcoming episodes and more chance to submit questions to future guests. But shh, don't tell anyone. It's our secret. Now, please keep spreading the word about the podcast. You're doing an amazing job, and I'm also super grateful for your five star ratings on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, because these seriously helped my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose mischief over mediocre. Have a great week and keep making mischief, ciao.