Redefining Space, Reimagining Age, Redesigning Your Career: with Interiors Psychologist Michelle Armitage

Are your living spaces in sync with your psyche? Prepare to have your mind blown as I sit down with the remarkable Michelle Armitage, an Interior Psychologist with a flair for crafting spaces that resonate with individuals on a psychological level. This isn't your typical home makeover show; it's a deep dive into your mind, mapping your unique intricacies and personal journey onto your living spaces. 

Michelle shares how your personality and personal tastes can influence your home decor, and how your choices in design can empower you and serve as an expression of your identity. From her own journey of meshing her in-depth understanding of psychology with her love for nature and art, she's now breaking boundaries in the realm of interior design. Not only that, but Michelle also offers insights into her exciting journey of self-publishing her book, revealing the highs and lows, and the importance of understanding your audience in the publishing industry.

Age is just a number when you've got a vision and determination. We delve into an intriguing discussion about societal perceptions of age, how it's never too late to take bold steps, and the power of confidence in making significant career shifts. Hear how Michelle found the courage to adapt and embrace change throughout her life, and how you too, can harness this tenacity to challenge the status quo. So, get ready to rethink the way you perceive interiors, design, and life itself.

Chapters

• 0:00 Rebel Interior Psychologist Challenges the Ordinary
• 7:42 Exploring Personal Tastes in Home Decor
• 20:13 Career Change and Creative Pursuits
• 23:45 Self-Publishing and Navigating the Publishing Industry
• 29:11 Pivoting and seizing opportunities
• 40:39 Embracing Change and Finding Confidence

Transcript

Michelle: 0:00

what am I up for? What do I want to get excited about? What's still there to be got hold of and enjoyed. So that kind of energy isn't a very apologetic space, is it? You're not really worried about what anyone thinks. I've got friends, got plenty of money and they're retiring, talking about children and grandchildren and houses and what's wrong with their bodies. You know that's their conversation. I couldn't be less interested.

Zoe: 0:29

Hello, it's Zoe and welcome or welcome back to the Mischief Movement podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more hell yeah in their life. Consider this you're one way to get out of mid-life mediocrity towards fun and positive impact via playful disruption. Wouldn't you love to wake up and feel like a total badass? How about breaking some rules, throwing two fingers up to society and doing more of the things you love? I'm talking full on freedom, adventure and those meaningful connections I know you've been craving. Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it. I'll be picking the brains of some true game changers and mischief makers so I can share what I find and hopefully inspire you to shake things up. Do more of what makes you feel alive and boldly rebel against the ordinary. I've no idea what I'm doing, to be honest, but I've got a mission and I'm here to start a movement. This could be quite the adventure. Care to join me? Okay, here goes.

Zoe: 1:32

What if you're approaching 40 and you feel like it's too late to change your life? Or what about that book you've always wanted to write but are too scared to put yourself out there? Or how about the creative passion you were told to leave as a hobby but you wish could become your career. This week's guest, michelle, has a thing or two to say about all of these. So if you've ever wondered what it's like to self publish, what life can look like after 40, or how it feels to pioneer your own new design career, listen up. Get ready to discover how the spaces we live in can affect how we show up, how a little self confidence can take you further than you think, and how aging is not the end, but actually the beginning, of redesigning your life, right? So my guest this week is Michelle Armatidge, and she's an interior psychologist. Oh no, I shouldn't have said that. I should have let you introduce yourself, really.

Zoe: 2:36

It's fine, it's fine, I'm still getting used to it. Well, that's what I'll ask you, then, is what your mischief is, and then you can tell me exactly what it is.

Michelle: 2:44

So I basically like to challenge people, I like to co-cap them. Are you happy? Are you happy? This is very much what you do.

Michelle: 2:52

That's my mischief, and I do the people I care about. I can be quite interfering, because if I know that something's not right either with work or their health or their relationships or where they're at in life, then I will go and prod them. So my friends who are close to me, they kind of know they're at risk Proded, and I also like to have friends who do that back to me. That's quite mischievous, isn't it? Because it's like a little naughty elf. Are you happy? Are you happy? Are you sure you're happy? Are you sure you want to do that? But I'll stick around for that tough stuff as well.

Michelle: 3:29

Yeah, and I guess the other mischiefness is that I've never really done things you're supposed to do, never been interested in being married, not really interested in chasing money, not interested in status or or qualifications. I'm just not interested in a lot of things people are interested in. Are you happy? Am I happy? I'm a work in progress I have. Yeah, I would give myself like a seven out of ten, something niggling at me at the moment actually, but I think it's because when I was writing the book I was really happy. But you come out of it and now I've got the hard job of promoting it and then other things. So I'm in a bit of a change point at the moment.

Zoe: 4:11

Well, I don't want to probe too much in that case, but tell me more about the book.

Michelle: 4:15

My mission is to get more interest people more interested in the idea of psychology in the home in terms of interiors, because I think interiors and architecture is very much an artistic field and so when people bring interior designers into their lives, they give over something to them and there are lots of different types of interior designers.

Michelle: 4:39

I'm not having a go at the profession, but essentially people do well when they really suit their environment and so when I'm working with people, I work with them to understand what they really need and that's linked to their individual psychology. So my mission is to get that more mainstream, get that idea more mainstream, get people more interested in more than just what colors you like and where do you go on your holidays. When you're designing for someone, you actually say, well, what kind of environments make you comfortable and do you want you know what kind of cook are you and how do your family work together? And what happens when you say introvert, extroverts? How do you use the home? Where's the quiet space when someone needs to go and be compressed or concentrate? You know that kind of just a bit deeper conversation.

Zoe: 5:30

I've never heard the term an interior psychologist before, so where's that come from?

Michelle: 5:35

It is actually slightly dangerous because I've got a psychology degree and to be called a psychologist in America and in Australia not sure about every country in the world you can't just use a term. But in the UK, where I mainly practice, you can use it in this term. It's only protected if it's prefaced with educational psychologists or criminal psychologists and that's regulated by the British Psychological Society. So I am taking a bit of a risk, I am being a bit rebellious by using it, but I'm dealing with interiors. I'm not a heart surgeon, you know, it's not a big deal really, and I do know a lot about psychology.

Zoe: 6:16

So would it be fair to say that you're literally carving out your own niche?

Michelle: 6:20

Yeah, totally.

Zoe: 6:20

Yeah amazing.

Michelle: 6:23

It's very rebellious, it's very mischievous.

Zoe: 6:29

So what's been the journey up until this point, then? Have you always been a bit of a rebel?

Michelle: 6:34

No, I had a quiet childhood and young parents who didn't really know how to. I grew up in the 70s, so it wasn't really a time when I'm just actually remembering. There was a lot of freedom in the 70s in one way, but not in others, so children could play freely, but when you were around grown-ups and things you had to behave, it was pretty strict.

Michelle: 6:56

So, I remember feeling quite squashed in a lot of ways. There may be. It's been a gradual rebellion from teenage onwards and I'm certainly aware that I've got louder and louder and bounce you and bounce you and I would say a lot of people can cope with me in small doses. I actually can't answer that question, so I think other people, like friends, will go yes, michelle, you've always been definitely doing your own thing, but I guess when it's you, it's just you doing you, isn't it so?

Zoe: 7:27

Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that you said that you get louder and louder, like I assume that as you've got older, you've just got more and more confident. Would that be fair?

Michelle: 7:37

Yeah, I mean, obviously, like most people's lives, there are ups and downs with that.

Zoe: 7:41

Yeah, but.

Michelle: 7:41

I certainly. You know, it's a classic thing you become less apologetic. If someone criticizes me now, my response is usually uh-huh, I really don't want to.

Zoe: 7:51

Where does that come from? Do you think that's an age thing? Because I've got a bit more like that too, I'm, so. The word is exactly what you said less apologetic, you know? Yes, I think.

Michelle: 8:03

Well, for me, I, just when I was getting towards my late 40s, I started to see the end of this life and started to look at what I'd done. And I've done lots of fun things in my life, but I started to learn it right. Okay, I'm in that the last third or maybe a bit longer. But you know what am I up for? What's? What do I want to get excited about? What's still there to be got hold of and enjoyed. So that kind of energy isn't a very apologetic space, is it? You're not really worried about what anyone thinks.

Michelle: 8:37

I've got friends, got plenty of money and they're retiring, talking about children and grandchildren and houses and what's wrong with their bodies. You know that's their conversation. I couldn't be less interested. I kind of chime with people a lot younger than me, often, or other women who, and a few of male friends who are on a more of an interesting journey of what's still there to get excited about and explored. Yeah, so maybe that's it. You know you, I find you you surround yourself with different people at different phases of your life anyway. So, yeah, I don't know about the apologetic thing and I'm not sure if I ever was particularly apologetic, but I'm less so now, so yeah, and so what are some of the fun things that you do want to lean into at this phase of your life?

Michelle: 9:26

I think, actually because I've just written a book, so I've been very in that space. So I'm still looking at that. I can work too hard or get into that. And in terms of exploration, there's certainly a lot of travel I want to do, but I think a lot of it is like internal things, that there are things to still learn. I'd just been to Budley Salterton Literature Festival, so listening to lots of different voices, some novelist, some nonfiction, lots of ideas, so that's exciting for me. Still on that learning journey I think I wrote you about this.

Michelle: 10:05

So in the summer I went off to France in my I've got a little mini camper and that was really fun. So it's not like a big, it's just a Blingo, which is I love my Blingo. It's just fabulous. It's got big windows, you can see everything. And driving around the countryside in France was so. I didn't go on the motorways much, I just went on all the A roads, you know miles to miles, to some flower fields. It just felt very free. Wow, it sounds amazing. So that's really fabulous.

Michelle: 10:37

And so next summer I would like to be able to extend that trip and go a bit further with that. So it was a bit of a test to see if I were freaked out. Really. You know, camping on your own in a place you don't know, when you're not that good at the language do you keep it all open? And then when I got there, it was fine. I traveled 1500 miles on my own and in an old car. The RAC wouldn't give me a policy to ensure, but when I looked at it, you don't need the AARIC in France anyway. It's different. So I just learned je suis en pan, which means I have broken down. I didn't have to use it and it didn't. It was fine. My little car hit 100,000 miles on that trip. Amazing, yeah. So things like that. I guess those are those kind of adventures which for somebody else they might have done it when they were a lot younger. For me I didn't go traveling until I was 28. So in a lot of things I feel like I'm a bit of a late developer.

Zoe: 11:41

Yeah Well, it doesn't sound like it stopped you in any way. Can you tell me some more about your book though? Yeah Shall I show you what? Yes. I have a copy right here. People won't be able to see it, but I'll tell you it says your design personality at home.

Michelle: 11:57

So because my first career was in human resources and I've also got qualifications in coaching and counselling. So there are various different things I've kind of uncovered in my curiosity about human beings my whole life. So when I started to learn about interiors I felt always the relink. So I was asking myself questions Is there a link between psychometric personality tests and taste and interiors? So I kind of went off on little searches and actually there are quite a lot of links. So what I've done is I've looked at the research of the environmental psychologist research and pull a psychologist and pulled out various things but made what is hopefully an easy to read, fun read for the everyday person who doesn't want to wade through you know PhDs and things and so it's a step by step guide.

Michelle: 12:50

So you kind of you start by a self discovery and then that links the taste. So for example, behind me there's lots of you know I like art and there's lots of different landscapes. So somebody who's got something called high openness to experience is someone who likes a variety. They want to explore different cultures. If they go to a restaurant, a lot of different meals, they like to change things up. For somebody in that kind of personality you'll see it in their homes. You might see it in books or art or collections or objects, even just the throw that certain fabric design, you know it will reveal a bit about that aspects of their nature. And in the book there are probably I think it's 30, actually various different things that I explore to get the answer for somebody you know.

Zoe: 13:40

So would I be right in saying that it helps somebody who maybe doesn't have much of an idea about how to style up their house to understand what their tastes?

Michelle: 13:49

are. Yeah, I've aimed at someone with no confidence and I think the kind of text behind it say a lot of people say be like me, you know. So a lot of designers will put out a book certainly celebrity designers put out a book be more like me. And if you're already clear about what kind of interior is you like, you might find a very confident celebrity, a good person to follow, because it's inspirational, it gives you ideas. But if you've got no confidence at all, I think a lot of people feel very insecure and self-critical really about they have a desire to have more interesting home or do something in their home, but they don't have a confidence. So the idea of this is to give them confidence to do their own thing and to be their own person. Yeah, yeah. So I guess the mission there is validating individual tastes, whatever that is, because it's their home.

Zoe: 14:44

Hi, do you know what? I find it really hard. Sometimes I feel like I've got lots of different tastes and I find it really difficult to bring them all together and for my home to look harmonious and not like a junk shop, just not like a collection of things. I find that the hardest part of all. I know what I like but doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work in harmony with the other things. I have to be really careful there.

Michelle: 15:12

Yeah, exactly. So that is a common theme, because you might like every type of styles. You might like art deco, you also might like floral country. Well, they don't go together. It's all. One's geometric and one is, and tends to be, more neutral palette, and one is very colorful and floral. So how do you? And you can put them together, but that is actually quite a challenge.

Michelle: 15:34

There's something, though, that some of you talk about red threads through a house, like a house should look the same throughout it, and I think that's absolutely I'll wash. I'm not gonna swear, I really have to see it absolutely rubbish, because what if you're in if the kind of person you have different moods or different activities and you want to feel different in different bits of the house? Also, if you're a family, you've got children, what are you gonna say? Your children are gonna decorate the same way you're gonna decorate. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Michelle: 16:02

We've got different a lot of house, you've got lots of little rooms, so make them all different, and then you could actually have different themes and different rooms for different aspects of yourself. Have you got that in your own home? I do have it here, yeah, so my lounge is quite colourful shade of pink, lots of pattern and lots of texture, so that behind I've got a big 300 year old stone fireplace. It's fabulous old cottage. Upstairs is very pale and my bedroom is white and I try and keep it as empty as possible.

Michelle: 16:37

That's quite a contrast then. Yeah, so I think because I've switched a chaotic mind, when I go to sleep I want to really have a calm room.

Zoe: 16:47

Yeah, you really are thinking about the purpose of the room and how you want to feel in each one.

Michelle: 16:52

Yeah, so yeah, I really like it if I go into a room, a bedroom, and it's just wood and white and maybe plants and that's it. That is a lovely, serene space, whereas social spaces where you've got people around. So yeah, the downstairs of my house is very different. The home is a metaphor for the self and I think we all do live in a way where our homes are. You know, if we are a bit chaotic in ourselves, our houses get a bit messy and it's you know. So it's hard to be to relax in a chaotic space.

Zoe: 17:30

Yeah, I'm always saying that in my house. I mean it's hard. I've got two young children but I can't deal with the clutter. I need it to be a calm space when I'm in my home and I do think, as you say, a lot of the way we style our houses and the way we live in them. It can also then affect our mindset for other things. You know, I know for a fact that if my home is in a state and I come home to that, I'm not in a good headspace.

Michelle: 18:03

Yeah, yeah, if you go on holiday, you always make sure you tidy up. Yes, definitely, I'm sticking to that. You don't come back to jobs that you've forgotten about.

Zoe: 18:11

Yeah, oh my god, but it's the best feeling no one's been away and you come home and you walk in and it's tidy and it's clean and everything's in place and there's been no Lego anywhere and like it's just, and you kind of go ah, isn't it nice to come home to that.

Michelle: 18:30

I like that. No Lego. Yeah, the parents. What torture.

Zoe: 18:34

Yeah, I don't think you suffer for that problem, but you know, for any of the parents out there, I feel your pain literally.

Michelle: 18:41

So the other thing is, of course, what is decluttered. You know what. So for me, what is tidy and a good environment might be too cluttered for you, or vice versa. Yeah, so I think you know there is there's objects and having stuff in your home, and then there's having a messy home, and for every individual person that looks different. So you get that a lot in couples. I mean. I do think interior designers sometimes couple therapists, because when you're trying to help a couple design, you kind of working in that marriage If you've got a family more complicated. So you know the whole thing around people not seeing dirt, not seeing mess and how things work. But there's, you know, there's a lot in that and it is the individual. It's not one person's lazy and the other ones are not. It is genuinely they lived on their own. They would live differently. Yeah.

Zoe: 19:36

So I'm keen to hear about how this career came about, because you've already told me it's something you know unusual, rebellious, that you've carved out your own niche. Where did that come from?

Michelle: 19:53

So I always loved interiors. So I was when I was younger. You saw what changing rooms the first series, don't remember that. And Anna Ryder Richardson was always my favorite designer yes, and she's still around there. And I've been a HR director in a property company for Andrews and I really enjoyed that. So I think it's sometimes a journey in life You're picking up different bits and then pulling them together. So I've got my psychology degree, always been interested in what makes people tick. Then you've got an artist and amateur artist and I love getting out and about in nature, so I draw and paint a lot to do with nature. To pull all that together in terms of interiors.

Michelle: 20:35

Then I thought, well, when I was really blown out from a particular job which I now know looking back on, it was the beginning of the menopause, combining with the health condition I've got, which is sleep apnea, which I wasn't managing. So I really got various. So you got stress, stressful job, health condition and then a change of life. So those things brought me to my knees really. So I didn't have a lot of choice. I had to make a significant change. I felt well, I really feel like I've done enough. It's been 30 years in this career. I want to do something else. I didn't know what it was. I actually started working in an Alice Lone paint job so I just went in and talked to Sarah, the owner. She had the shop open about three months and just waiting for her that she should give me a job. So I really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed helping people choose paintfulers. I really enjoyed chatting and it wasn't terribly serious. So if you think about human resources as a job and then the interior shopkeeper as a job, it was just delightful. The pay wasn't brilliant, but the role and the life was delightful. So I started learning and went on a, started a diploma in interior design and online diploma and my mind just kind of went like that. I was like, wow, there are careers that are fun and beautiful and creative and happy. You know, you're just happy in it. I mean it really was an amazing time.

Michelle: 22:04

I remember meeting in the Dine London in Paddington and I must have been so happy, so shiny from the stay I spent at KLC in Chelsea, harvard, that he just wanted to be with me. He wasn't really trying to pick me up in like a romantic way, he just wanted to be with me and he said oh, my train's coming, but I'd rather stay here and talk to you. It was really odd because I was just so changed. You know what I mean. So that was the beginning of it, and partway through the diploma I started doing design for people that I knew, and then I started to develop ideas about the psychology stuff. So I was still studying, and then that led to me doing talks. And then a friend of mine said well, you're gonna write a book on this, michelle, so how?

Zoe: 22:54

do you even go about writing and publishing a book? I wouldn't even know where to begin. There's so much more than just having the idea and writing the book. It's all the other stuff.

Michelle: 23:04

Yeah, there's a lot. I mean I had a book designer help me bring the actual design to view. I mean it's full color with lots of images in it, so it's like a magazine in terms of its layout. So I couldn't have I don't have the IT skills to do that the design skills, so that bit. But the bit about not being able to cope with criticism.

Michelle: 23:27

I deliberately did lots of mindset work because I knew that I was gonna come out and say here's something about design, psychology, and I've got no academic background. At some point someone was gonna say who are you to write that book? At some point it'll happen, so I'm kind of waiting for it and I'm ready for it. So there was that aspect as well as the actual writing, editing, rewriting, asking for more feedback, leaving it, coming back, going oh, that's rubbish, chop, chop, chop, chop that kind of ruthlessness. It took three years, yeah, three years. Three years, yeah, from start to finish. Yeah, about 65,000 words and 300 images, and yeah, so it's. And to simplify things so that they're easy to read. That's how you know. It would have been easier if it was longer, like the color chapter's about 4,000 words. At one point it was 20,000 words. Yeah, like it's, some subjects are so complicated.

Zoe: 24:26

Where do you find a book designer? Do you literally just Google book design and see who pops up?

Michelle: 24:31

No, actually any of your listeners are interested in writing. There is an organization called the Alliance of Independent Authors and they have a Facebook group and they have lots of resources and guides on how to be self-published, so that's really helpful.

Michelle: 24:49

I mean not everyone's gonna write a book like mine. I've got friends who've written memoirs and novels and they are more straightforward to publish self-publish. And then there's a concept called going wide, so going beyond Amazon and Kindle, direct Publishing. So there's a whole set of thinking in that and the self-publishing industry in the last 10 years has really disrupted the publishing industry. So now the idea that in between we're no gatekeepers anymore you know that once upon a time there were people who said you do or don't get to have a book and music and stuff.

Michelle: 25:23

Yeah, yeah. So now, and so the publishing industry's changed because of the self-publishing world and, like everything else in social media land, it's all about the discoverability of what it is that you're doing and hoping quite different ways to find your audience.

Zoe: 25:40

Yeah.

Michelle: 25:43

So there's plenty of resources out there to help.

Zoe: 25:45

There you go, being disruptive again, you see, oh, that's quite cool, just need to be aware of few sharks.

Michelle: 25:53

Like in every field, there are some sharks that will come and offer you what seems like a good solution for a fee. And yeah, you just need to be a bit well just aware of who's offering what and get different quotes. Does that make sense? You know, like I could. Someone could come along and say if you pay me 5,000 pounds, I'll edit your book, I'll print your book and, you know, I'll help distribute your book. And you really need to check out the credentials of people offering that kind of thing, because and they might not be very credible and you probably do it by yourself- how are you meant to navigate them then?

Michelle: 26:34

Well, if you join something like the Allons of Independent Authors and you start asking around other people who have interacted with the publishing industry and you say I'm looking for an editor, I mean editing is there are organisations for editing and proof readers where people act your register, just like TECATRADER kind of thing it's the same thing. You've got people who will recommend and the Ally will recommend certain people, and I found my book Descend and their niece, Howard Smith, and she was great and I've never actually met her. It's like chatting to you now. She lived in Cambridge so we chatted online and she was great. She had a bit of an artistic idea of how I wanted the book to be. So it was an interaction, a creative interaction between us and she had patience to help me with that and understand, and she had lots of ideas and a lot of them are like oh, that's brilliant. So it felt like a proper creative collaboration.

Michelle: 27:33

And when did the book actually come out? It came out at the end of April this year. Oh, so it's like fresh, fresh, yeah, yeah. And I just started to draft up an online course to support it, because what I'm realising is people want to continue to talk in order to understand their style. Just reading a book is not enough. So I want to create like an online community and I think that'll build in time. I don't think I'll do that overnight.

Zoe: 28:04

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Michelle: 29:11

I actually took a HR job for a while to pay the bills so that I could focus on researching, writing the book.

Zoe: 29:17

That's really interesting. That's such a practical thing to do to go take not a step back, but to go back into something that you'd done before. So that you were able to then advance a new career in a different direction.

Michelle: 29:35

Yeah, I guess it was just easy. I just knew that I could. I mean, I've skipped out a few steps, so I had. Actually, I had some really lucky breaks where people have said, hey, why don't you come and design this space? And if you were 21, going into a new career, you wouldn't get the opportunity to design an office for 120 people. But because I had other skills that I could bring to the party. I love that.

Zoe: 29:59

I love that so much. I sit here and I wonder why society tends to write off people after their 40, when we're the ones with all the experience. Like you said, you're never going to give a job of that size to somebody who's just fresh out of uni. So here you are saying look at me, how old are you? You don't have to answer precisely, I don't mind that 55. 55. That's amazing yeah.

Michelle: 30:33

And I feel about 35. Do you know? Last week I went to see Trini Woodall. She's got a new book out called Fearless, which is just amazing. She's 59, but I think women after the menopause is a vitality that comes and a confidence. And yeah, society, some people in society will be ages and, right off, older people, but not everybody. No, and like I said before, someone can criticise me, they're welcome to. I'd have to listen to it.

Zoe: 31:10

How old are you? I'm 41. I'm just about to turn 42.

Michelle: 31:14

Yeah, yeah, so that I think I remember being 40, and 40 is a real watershed, isn't it? Again, it's like there are these points you've got. Oh, actually, this is an interesting point and I think when you look forward, there are many of people making you dread it. Like someone said to me a younger colleague, I dreading the menopause and I said, well, don't dread it, get your facts, get some support, and then afterwards it's fucking amazing. Good.

Zoe: 31:42

I'm glad you said that means I've got something to look forward to out the other side.

Michelle: 31:47

And Devina McColl has come out and actually Trini as well. Really, so many more resources. I remember going to doctors and I think I went into the. I think my hormones are changing, yeah, and they just did a test and said yeah, not quite right, not quite there yet, you know, and it's like, ah, and this is like when everything's changing. My potlashes are nothing, plastic, to remember things, all your joints starting to ache because estrogen is an anti-inflammatory. So when it starts to reduce, everything starts to hurt. You know, dry eyes, it's like a million symptoms. The worst ones are the emotional ones and the doctors would be nice to at least have been maybe given a leaflet of where to go or what to research or what's around. And now there's so much more awareness. It's great. Yes, yeah, 41, you're a young thing.

Zoe: 32:36

Oh, thanks.

Michelle: 32:38

What happened? Why did you go to Italy? I mean, that seems like such a big move to move countries.

Zoe: 32:47

So I came here when I was about, I think, 28, something like that, and I just had a dream that I wanted to move abroad, which came from, largely, I think, the fact that I was just so scared of doing everything. Yeah, and I was the classic friend in the group who everybody would always say, oh you know, we just need a bit more confidence, and I was sick of it and I decided I didn't want to be that person anymore. There wasn't confident, or that everybody else thought wasn't confident. You know, I've come to learn that actually. Well, I've learned two things about confidence really.

Zoe: 33:31

I think the first thing and I've said this before is you don't need to be the loudest person in the room, and I understand that a lot more. There's been quite confidence. It's a good point. I understand that a lot more now. But I used to sort of berate myself for being, you know, a bit quieter and a bit more analytical of people and not the first to put their hand up, not the first to project their voice and their opinion, the one he was listening and taking it in. And I think the second thing I've learned is that confidence can be learned anyway.

Michelle: 34:02

Yeah.

Zoe: 34:03

So I've kind of got there by doing lots of things. That scared me comes back to doing things that put you out your comfort zone at the end of the day, and that was big on my list. I just felt like if I could move countries and start a life somewhere else, like what could be more scary than doing that? And I felt like if I could do that, I could pretty much do anything.

Michelle: 34:23

Yeah, I agree, I mean going around France. A lot of people go, but we show you've been around the world, you've lived in Australia, you've done so many things and for some reason, french as much as I love France have always terrified me, and I think it went back to some early school holiday experiences have not been able to pronounce words properly, and so it was an obstacle in my mind to overcome, so I feel immensely proud of myself for doing that. So sometimes the confidence builders aren't always big things. Sometimes they're little things, aren't they?

Zoe: 34:56

Yeah, do you know? I heard something recently which made quite an impression on me, which was you only need the confidence to start. That's all you need, because the rest of the confidence will build as you do the thing. That's all you need, just the enough courage and enough confidence to say I'm just going to do this thing, that's scaring me, and then after that it will just build on its own.

Michelle: 35:18

Do you know the Liz Gilbert story of how she deals with fear? She wrote a book called Big Magic and we heard of Big Magic. I have read.

Zoe: 35:26

Big Magic a few years back.

Michelle: 35:28

So I must have listened to it a million times on Audible. But there's a bit where she kind of goes dear fear. Creativity and I are going on a journey. And she talks about what they're doing and that fear is coming anyway and he's allowed to come. He's not allowed to make decisions.

Zoe: 35:44

That's like fear. Is the passenger, not the driver, or?

Michelle: 35:47

something. Yeah, and that dude, you're not even allowed to play with the radio, that's like a bit of a blistering. And I just think I love that, that idea that fear never actually totally leaves you. You just kind of manage it better. Yes, and the more exciting the thing that you're doing, the more the fear it's proportionate. It'll be frightening as well as exciting, and maybe those two emotions are actually the same thing yes, fear and excitement.

Zoe: 36:16

They're certainly very similar, aren't they? So?

Michelle: 36:20

I think if you're a little bit frightened about stuff, then you're kind of in the right arena. I think when I was younger I threw myself in at the deep end, maybe a bit too much, and now I'm more kind to myself. But I went to uni the other end of the country I grew up in North Lancashire went all the way to Plymouth. I did that so I knew I'd be home, safe, some sensitive, and I didn't want to be able to go home at the weekend. So I went a long way away. But what was my 18-year-old self thinking? I cried for a week. It was dreadful, but I settled in and yeah. So I thought you think, what was that? Where was that strength of character? Like, I know I'll be rubbish at this, so I'm going to make myself do it.

Zoe: 37:00

Yeah, that's it. That's literally the story of my life, that is what I do, and that's how the podcast came about. Too Well, this is going to be hard and scary. Oh, I think I'll just do it then. So what's getting you excited about the future then? What's it looking like to you?

Michelle: 37:19

You will certainly probably not be this person, having a portfolio life, a life full of projects and new ideas. So someone said to me about my book oh, you found your thing. It's so great, you found your thing. And I thought I didn't say anything actually about it. No, I haven't found my thing. This is my thing at the moment and it's great and I love it and I'll. I'm still excited about it, and so I'm going to monetise it and I'm going to share it and it's going to be great.

Michelle: 37:45

But you know, in 10 years time, I don't know what I'll be doing. I really don't. I will carry on following my curiosity, having fun, engaging with people. I've no idea what's coming next. So I think that bit. I'm really good at being in the here and now and I'm not great at, like, planning ahead, apart from thinking. Spend time with family, spend time with good friends. Make sure you look after your friends, not neglect them, because you're in your head all the time. Go out and about and enjoy the countryside and really into the environment. So if I, if I, if I hit riches, I will spend that on. I will buy a blend and rewild it, that's you know. So I I certainly won't buy myself a Jaguar. I'll buy, probably buy a few fields and plant these on them, so it's that that kind of thing, but I genuinely don't know. Yeah, I have no real firm plans.

Zoe: 38:41

I love that, though at the end of the day, you've got to just kind of leaning to the things that you love and then like say, see what happens.

Michelle: 38:49

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean I feel lucky. I love psychology, I love art and I love nature, so interiors is like a natural place for me to be and I love hanging out with other interior designers. So that feels. I cried actually, I saw in somebody and actually hit an emotional nerve for me. I feel like I hang, I'm hanging out with the cool girls at school. I think we're crying again. Just just the feeling of that, Like I'm hanging out with people I want to hang out with. I'm having the conversations that I want to have. We could literally talk about fabric design and wallpaper design forever, I think, and never get bored, because pattern surface design is complex, clever thing and different color ways and why that one works and why that one doesn't work.

Michelle: 39:36

You know all that kind of stuff is great, designers are great. So, yeah, that's the space I can't see myself getting bored of.

Zoe: 39:45

I can see why that guy felt like you were so magnetic coming out of your interior design course because it do just light up when you talk about it. Where can people contact you on the internet or find out more about buying your book?

Michelle: 39:59

Oh, okay, so my business is called Light and Frank Interiors, so they've got a website which is lightandfrankcom and I've also got an Instagram, and so that's probably where I'm most active actually on Instagram. And then my book you can buy on Amazon. So if you look up my name, michelle Armitage, or the title your design personality at home, then you'll find me there.

Zoe: 40:24

Amazing, Thank you so much for joining me. I've loved this little interior design chart, Michelle.

Michelle: 40:29

Thank you, zoe, it's really nice to meet you.

Zoe: 40:33

So before I go, here are my 10 takeaways from this interview with Michelle. So, number one people do well when they really suit their environment. Number two aging doesn't mean the end. It can just be a fantastic excuse to reflect and then approach the next stage, embracing who you are and being totally unapologetic about it. Number three you surround yourself with different people at different stages of your life, and that's normal. Number four you can design the rooms of your house around different themes and how you want to feel in that space. So think about the purpose of each room as you design it. Number five the home can be a metaphor for the self. So if we're a bit chaotic in ourselves, our houses tend to get a bit messy. But remember, it's hard to relax in a chaotic space.

Zoe: 41:22

Number six don't dread turning 40 or the menopause, because there's a vitality and confidence that both come as a result. Number seven sometimes the confidence builders aren't the big things, they're the little ones, the little obstacles in your mind that you need to overcome. Number eight fear never actually leaves you, you just learn to manage it better. So the more exciting the thing is, the more fear there will probably be. But if you're a little bit frightened. You're probably in the right arena. Number eight finding something you love doesn't mean it's your thing, or rather your one and only thing. You are allowed to keep leaning into more things that you love and following your curiosity, whatever age or stage of life you're at. And number 10, don't be afraid to take a less than ideal job to get you closer to your main goal. Michelle worked in a paint shop to bring her closer to interior design and took a job back in her old career of HR when she needed to focus on writing her book.

Zoe: 42:35

I hope you loved today's episode and you made you think differently or perhaps nudged you into changing something in your life that's not working for you. I'd love to give you a shout out right here on the podcast too, so let me know what you think, what you'd like to hear more of or how you've been inspired by what you've heard. Let's keep in touch over on Instagram at mischiefandhide, or sign up to my newsletter at soygreeneheartcom. If you're enjoying being part of the mischief movement, please consider telling a friend or leaving me a review wherever you download your episodes, which will seriously help my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose mischief over mediocre. Ciao.