Finding Your Unique Path in the Creative World with Liz Mosley

How do you turn adversity into opportunity, and what is the true essence of branding? Liz Mosley, renowned branding designer, Adobe Max speaker, and the creative powerhouse behind the 'Building Your Brand' podcast, joins me today to enlighten us with her journey and insights. From her inspiring 100 Rejections Challenge to the significance of authenticity in branding, Liz's experiences are sure to inspire you to embrace your unique path in the creative world.

Liz’s experiences have taught her that professionalism doesn’t have to be rigid and monotonous and you can challenge the norms of professionalism, all while maintaining your unique identity. As she shares, it's about being intentional with your personal brand and accurately reflecting what it's like to work with you.

Liz also opens up about starting a podcast and overcoming rejection. How did her podcast journey begin? What did the Rejection Challenge teach her? She also reveals her plans for the soon-to-be-published hundredth episode of 'Building Your Brand'. Join us for a conversation brimming with creativity, resilience, and authenticity. Discover Liz's unique perspective on the challenges and triumphs of running a business, balancing motherhood, and continuously reinventing creativity whilst always doing things on her terms!

https://www.lizmosley.net/

https://www.instagram.com/lizmmosley/

Transcript

Liz Mosley: 0:00

And, honestly, from the moment I decided to do it, my mindset shifted because it all became like a fun game where it's like a win-win situation.

Zoe Greenhalf: 0:10

Hello, it's Zoe and welcome or welcome back to the Mischief Movement podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more hell yeah in their life. Consider this your one way ticket out of mid-life mediocrity towards fun and positive impact via playful disruption. Wouldn't you love to wake up and feel like a total badass? How about breaking some rules, throwing two fingers up to society and doing more of the things you love? I'm talking full on freedom, adventure and those meaningful connections I know you've been craving. Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it. I'll be picking the brains of some true game changers and mischief makers so I can share what I find and hopefully inspire you to shake things up, do more of what makes you feel alive and boldly rebel against the ordinary. I've no idea what I'm doing, to be honest, but I've got a mission and I'm here to start a movement. This could be quite the adventure. Care to join me? Okay, here goes.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:13

Have you ever felt happy in a nine to five, only to discover your ambitious or entrepreneurial side as you got older? Have you ever wanted to belong in an industry yet, at the same time, being determined not to follow along? This week's awesome guest is Liz Mosley, branding designer, adobe Max, speaker and host of the hugely popular creative podcast Building your Brand. In this open and honest conversation, we discussed the power of branding to build your identity, the beauty of creating challenges to gamify tasks we really don't want to do, and how being authentic is the foundation of meaningful connections. This was a really fun one and reminded me that sometimes, just the process of creating something is where we can find the real joy. I think I would like to start by saying how thrilled I am to finally have this conversation with you, because I've been looking forward to this for a couple of months. I have to say, liz, do you want to tell everybody what your mischief is?

Liz Mosley: 2:17

Well, I think I have many mischiefs, but I'll pick one for today.

Liz Mosley: 2:23

I think my mischief is, I guess, kind of like trying to find a way to do things my own way. So this looks different in different scenarios. So I think when I was quite young in my career it really felt like a bit of a all boys club and I really sort of like I guess like walked away from that and just kind of I feel like probably a bit detrimentally, but I scrolled myself away and kind of like did my own thing and tried not to think too much about what was going on in this group over here that I didn't feel like I belonged, like I was part of. And then I'm a bit more in it now, like I've embraced the design sort of world a bit more, but I think just in ways of challenging myself, like I am always setting myself challenges and I love that as a way to push myself, to find new ways to do things. And I think, yeah, I think that's my mischief trying to find my own way to tackle something.

Zoe Greenhalf: 3:28

I love that and also it's. It would have been so easy for you at the start of your career to kind of get sucked into that. Well, that's how they're doing things and that's therefore probably how I should be doing it. I think the fact that you started and went right I'm going to this is my lane and I'm going to stick to it Like kudos to you. I don't know if I'd have been quite so headstrong when I was a young designer. I think I was more like oh my God, how do I fit in here? I feel like I'm not sure whether I'm cut out for this and I'm not sure whether I think like they do, and you know it's. I totally reverse that now.

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:04

I'd be like why would I want to fit in, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Mosley: 4:07

But I mean, I think I was like that too and my tactic was very much like close my eyes and ignore what they're doing, like just not even look, so that I don't have to, so that I don't get all the like doubts and stuff, because I still get them. Now I think it's hard now with social media, you know you can see it's like served up to you every day what everybody else is doing, and so then I feel like I'm constantly stopping myself from going into a little spiral and just having to remind myself to like, stay in my lane and just do things the way that I want to do them. Yeah, I think I think it's hard not to be impacted by that, isn't it?

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:42

Yeah, I think so, but how? I mean, how long has your career, your career, design, been so far? What do you say?

Liz Mosley: 4:51

Oh, hang on 15, 16 years.

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:57

Yeah, okay, so you're a veteran of the creative world. No, you're experienced. That's what I was getting at. Yeah, nice. So I'm curious to see how that you know how it's changed over the 15 years. Have you got more self assured in your style of doing things and stuff, or do you still find yourself comparing what you do to everybody else?

Liz Mosley: 5:29

A bit of both, I would say. I think what's quite interesting is that at the start of my career I never thought that I wanted to work for myself. Like, actually, I sort of was quite adamant that I didn't and I very much went down there, moved to London, get a job and I worked in house for a long time and, interestingly, I wasn't really very ambitious in my career. I enjoyed it but I was just quite happy taking along with my nine to five job. I really appreciated being able to just switch off when I got home and not think about it too much. And then when I started to take on my own clients and got a bit of a taste for running my own business and when I started doing stuff myself, I then got really ambitious.

Liz Mosley: 6:18

And I think that's quite interesting how it sort of feels a bit like a weird time to become ambitious, because I feel like often that happens at the beginning of your career and you really push hard and you try and like grow, whereas I feel like I basically started my business and had kids and that's when I became really ambitious, which seems like feels a bit like the wrong way around to do it, and I think because of that, sometimes I feel like I'm behind, like I'm starting a bit late or I'm a bit late to the party.

Liz Mosley: 6:53

So I feel like it's a mix of the two.

Liz Mosley: 6:56

Sometimes I think having been in the industry for a while does give me like a certain level of confidence, like I learned loads from my other jobs which really helped me in setting up my own business, because I had loads of experience of like processes and like managing multiple projects and all this kind of stuff.

Liz Mosley: 7:18

That's really served me well. But then I think I look around at the people who were like I don't know, have been doing design for like three years and have scaled like a massive, you know like a massive agency or something, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like what have I been doing all this time? Like what do I have to show for 15 years? But yeah, so I think it is a bit of a mix of the both and I like definitely have imposter syndrome and you know like I get distracted by what other people are doing all the time. But I think still try and push myself to like going back to my mischief, like still try and push myself to like find my way to do things and not necessarily just do something, because everybody else is doing it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 8:02

Yeah, yeah, totally. And one of the challenges that I really like kind of followed quite closely was your 100 reduction challenge. I know you've spoken about it on a couple of podcasts, including your own, but just in case anybody's missed it, what was the 100 reduction challenge?

Liz Mosley: 8:23

Well. So basically, I think I get a bit self-reflective. And so I, about a year, about exactly a year ago I had like a. It was actually like an inconsequential rejection. It was basically just me inviting someone to be on my podcast and he said no because I didn't have enough, like listeners, and he was like, oh, let me know when you get more.

Liz Mosley: 8:45

It was actually a really nice, polite rejection, but it brought up a lot of feelings for me which really shocked me. I felt like ashamed, I felt embarrassed that I'd asked him Like. I felt like I made a bit of a fool of myself, you know like for asking someone who has like a huge social following to be on my podcast. Anyway, I thought it was interesting that those feelings came up for something that was actually so small and minor, and it made me realize like my gut feeling in that moment was like right, I need to not do that again, like don't you know, like don't go too big, don't ask anyone too well known, because it is just like embarrassing or whatever. And so that basically sparked me going into this whole sort of analysis of like how I feel about rejection and how, and then, I guess, starting to notice how it was holding me back from, I guess, going for the things I wanted to go for in my business. So I decided to gamify it and to turn it into a rejection challenge. So this was inspired by my friend, katie, who's an illustrator. She had done a no thank you challenge, which sounds much nicer. She like decided to make it like a little bit less harsh, but yeah.

Liz Mosley: 9:54

So I set myself a challenge to go out seeking rejections and, honestly, from the moment I decided to do it, my mindset shifted because it all became like a fun game where it was like a win win situation. And that's not to say that there weren't some rejections that I still took, a bit harder than others. I like I feel like I still had to work through the emotions, but what I noticed was I recovered from them a lot quicker than I had done in the past and I was much better at stopping myself from like making them into a story about me. That wasn't true. So I was much quicker at like flipping that round and being like OK, no, this doesn't mean all these negative things that my brain wants to tell me. It means, actually, this just wasn't the right fit and, like I remember that's how we like initially connected, because you sent me the most incredible voice note which I remember so clearly. Honestly it was.

Liz Mosley: 10:50

It was so encouraging and it was basically like you had come up with some phrases which I think I then like letters and shared on Instagram. You'd come up with some phrases that, like really helped you with rejection and they were really, really helpful and I just think I just really enjoyed the process of, I guess, like baffling it face on and not letting it be this big scary thing anymore, and it's just been a really amazing experience for my business, partly because of, like, the opportunities that have come my way from the rejections, but also partly from what has come from just talking about it. So, like I got to do the closing keynote conference recently where I spoke about it and I got, like I've had so many messages from people being like, oh, I love following your challenge. Because of it, I just pitched to do this and they said yes, and it's like some amazing thing and I really inspired it.

Liz Mosley: 11:41

It's cool, yeah, and I didn't go into it thinking that that would have like that wasn't, it wasn't really on my radar. Like it was a purely selfish thing and I guess, you know, like from a slightly cynical perspective, I was like, oh, this would make good content. You know, like I'll talk about this. This will be like interesting content. But people, people have like really taken hold of it and are like doing their own challenges and, yeah, like I'm like having amazing opportunities come their way. And then I just love it when people message me and are like, oh yeah, I saw your rejection challenge and I did this and now I'm doing this really cool thing and I'm just like, oh, that is amazing.

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:17

Yeah it is because you've actually got people talking about something that feels shameful and you know you, you've got quite a high level of self awareness to be able to sit down and reflect and process those kind of feelings, so that's inspiring and encouraging to other people, I think.

Liz Mosley: 12:37

Yeah, I forget that possibly not everybody analyzes how they feel about things like that.

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:44

Yeah, I think it's a good thing. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm really happy about it.

Liz Mosley: 12:49

Yeah, definitely, and I think it like serves me well and I actually really enjoy it. Like. I enjoy the process of like sitting down and getting analytical. And I have got a particular friend, my friend Lois, who's really similar and we've been friends for like since our college, like she's known me so long and we basically like voice note, process, like our emotions about things, and it's just so helpful to have someone else who also thinks that way and we basically like help each other, like unpick it all, and I spend my life like voice noting and being like right, I've had a revelation, this is what I'm thinking about, this. And then it's just like, and sometimes we don't even respond to each other. It's just like the act of saying out loud to someone is really helpful.

Zoe Greenhalf: 13:34

So I saw that you recently went to LA to the Adobe. Max conference. What was that like? Because I was dying to ask you about it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 13:42

I was like I can't wait till you come back and I can talk to you on the phone. I'll ask you what it was like, because I was following along with all your stories as you were meeting people and going to talks, and I just felt like through your stories, a little piece of me was trans, you know, transported there, and I could kind of I could really experience your enthusiasm and the vibe of just kind of creative people coming together to do something really positive.

Liz Mosley: 14:11

Yeah, it was like incredible, I find it. So it was the second time I've been and I find it incredibly inspiring, mainly because of that, like all those creative people together and getting to meet, you know, like people that you've looked up to and admired Admittedly, I don't do that in a very cool, but I make myself do it anyway. But yeah, and just like I've made so many friends, like what was really nice this year is that quite a few people that I've met the year before were going and so it was so nice catching up with them and it made me realize that these were like really genuine connections, like really genuine, you know, even though I don't live near these people. It was like genuine relationships, like people really like. It was like a very positive and supportive like community environment and I went to some really inspiring talks and it was interesting because a lot of the so they like allowed Adobe always like announced loads of new features at the conference.

Zoe Greenhalf: 15:07

Is that what it's about? Is that why I mean it on?

Liz Mosley: 15:10

That's like one part of it, so like the key. So one of the key notes is always them sort of telling you all the new features that are coming out in their products. But then there's like talks from loads of creatives. I mean, I guess, because they make a product that's for creatives, like it makes sense for them to put on something like that. But all of their product updates were about AI, which I have made.

Liz Mosley: 15:36

It was like interesting and impressive, the stuff that can happen. Some of the things I was like, oh, that's really exciting. Some of the things I was like, oh, I'm not sure how I feel about that. But what was really interesting is that all of the talks that I went to were so human and so emotional and it was like people being really vulnerable about their careers and their creative process and how creativity had helped them in really dark times, really opening up about stuff, and it was just so interesting having that comparison so close together and it was really inspiring. The talks that I went to I didn't get to go to as many as I wanted. Luckily, quite a lot of them are recorded, so I'm catching up on ones that I missed. There's loads of them on. There's 8,000 people there, you can't. A lot of them are the talks that I wanted to go to clash, so I had to pick the ones to go to, it's like at a festival, really.

Zoe Greenhalf: 16:36

Yeah, exactly, you just got to make your choice. Yeah exactly.

Liz Mosley: 16:41

But yeah, they were really, really inspiring and I do always come away feeling re-envigorated and like, okay, I'm really excited to be making and to grow my business and all of that kind of thing. And just learning from people who are further along in the journey than you or have a different perspective or do different type of work than you, that's still creative, that's really cool.

Zoe Greenhalf: 17:05

Did you go to any talks or meet anybody where something that they said made you kind of really go? Oh my God, I hadn't thought about it like that. Can you think of any moments where you were like, wow, that's put a different perspective on it?

Liz Mosley: 17:22

for me. There were two that stood out to me, and one of them was Adam J Kurtz, and I think the perspective that he was really was really vulnerable and opened up about his struggle with his mental health and I guess, like how his practice and his creativity had helped him work through that, and so I don't know if it put a different spin on it, but I think it made me realize again the power that creativity has to actually help people, so to help people who consume it, but also to help the people who create it. And I think that's where I find it really hard to get excited about AI, because I think the beauty of creativity is like the actual process of creating creative work and like, yeah, I would love AI to like remove some of the boring elements of it that take ages, but I don't ever want to stop creating. Like I and I guess it's that thing of you know like why get a robot to do the things that I enjoy doing as part of the creative process?

Liz Mosley: 18:30

And so I think that really struck me again is like I guess the impact that creativity can have in the world and the positive impact it can have, and, like you know, you see it, when there's like lots of crises in the world, you know, like like we're having right now, and you see how artists create work that almost like it is them processing what's going on and helping them make sense of it, and then they share that and then it goes like viral on social media and you can see how them expressing that in a particular way can help other people and also get a message across. And I think that's where I get really excited about graphic design as well is like that power to be able to communicate effectively. So yeah, I'm not sure if that really answers your question, but I think I think often it's like being reminded about things that I already knew. But when you're like in the nitty gritty of like deadlines and client work and trying to get things done, it's quite easy to sort of forget that bigger picture.

Zoe Greenhalf: 19:35

Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that. But you know, it is really important, as anybody in any creative practice, to get out of their four walls and go out and experience some kind of stimulation to sort of you know, like you say reinvigorate yourself, and whether that's going for a walk, traveling, going to a museum, like you know, it's that whole thing of making sure that you're feeding your creativity and constantly giving yourself inspiration from different sources. I just kind of feel like that's what that's probably done for you.

Liz Mosley: 20:11

Yeah, totally, and I genuinely believe like, although like, obviously going to LA is absolutely amazing, it doesn't have to be that big. You know, like I think you're right, like going for a walk, like just changing your surroundings and choosing to look at things slightly differently, Like that really helps me. You know, like going for a walk and intentionally thinking, right, I'm going to try and notice things that I wouldn't normally notice, like just something small, like that.

Zoe Greenhalf: 20:39

You know what I find is the best way with that is to take your kids with you. My kids are always pointing stuff out to me that I hadn't noticed. Wow, how have I never seen that before, when I've gone this way like a hundred times?

Liz Mosley: 20:49

Yeah, totally. But just like that is one of the things I love about like hanging out with kids in general is they just help you to see things from a different perspective because they're just looking at everything through a completely different lens than you. And that is like even just when we like go for days out and stuff it could be somewhere that I've been loads of times and then seeing their like excitement, enthusiasm for it, like it's really contagious, and then you're like, oh actually, yeah, this is really cool and I've taken it for granted, but now seeing it through their eyes has like inspired me again. So, yeah, totally.

Zoe Greenhalf: 21:24

How difficult do you find it being your boss and still being there for your children and making sure that you can, you know, be there for them and your capacity as a mother? Because I personally find it difficult.

Liz Mosley: 21:40

Okay For me there's like pros and cons or I think some things I'm doing well and some things I'm not. So I do love that. So I work from home. So actually both me and my husband is self-employed, we both work from home and we share, like, the childcare between us. But what I like is I can just come down from the office when they get home from school and ask them how their day's been and have those like little breaks in the day where I go and just like chat to them. Like I love that we're always around and that I have the flexibility to sort of like see them at different points in the day and, you know, like if one of them's got a school assembly, like I don't have to ask anyone's permission for time off to go and see it, so that I really love.

Liz Mosley: 22:30

I think the bit that I struggle with the most is I think if I didn't have kids that needed looking after, I could easily be a workaholic, like I think I love my business and I love what I do and I get a bit all consumed by it, and so what happens is that I do find it hard sometimes to be really present with them when I am with them because I'm like, oh, I'll just have a quick look on Instagram or just see if any emails have come in.

Liz Mosley: 22:55

Like it's just too easy with your phone there all the time, and so I think sometimes I don't do the best job of being present and I think that's something that I need to just keep working on trying to have better boundaries with, like how, how I switch off. I'm basically not very good at switching off from work, and so I think that is one of the struggles when you run your own business, because, like, ultimately, it all stops with me, you know, and there's like a pressure to like keep the money flowing in and, you know, like to keep my business growing and all this kind of stuff, and so sometimes I think I don't handle that balance.

Zoe Greenhalf: 23:31

Well, yeah, I think a lot of people would echo what you just said. Actually, yeah, having your phone in your pocket all the time, it's so tempting, isn't it?

Liz Mosley: 23:40

It's not about those boundaries.

Zoe Greenhalf: 23:44

So do you call yourself a graphic designer or a branding designer, or both?

Liz Mosley: 23:49

I'm not sure I mean both, I would call myself a graphic designer, you get to choose your title. I would say that I'm a graphic designer who specializes in branding.

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:00

Amazing. And so what does that entail then? Because I've had a conversation with Amy Goodall, who is a branding and visual identity strategist.

Liz Mosley: 24:13

Oh, that's a good. Oh okay, strategist, okay yeah.

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:18

So we had a whole conversation about the fact that you know, branding is not just the logo.

Liz Mosley: 24:22

Do you have to?

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:23

have those conversations with customers as well. Like you know, branding is so much more than me drawing up a logo.

Liz Mosley: 24:31

Like most of the clients who come to me now I think I don't feel like I've had to explain that too much recently and it might be that I'm sort of doing a better job of attracting the sort of clients that I want to work with, who I guess are like ready to like invest a bit more in their branding I would say, like I don't do as much of the sort of like strategy aspect of branding, so like I do a bit of it, but I don't go super in depth, so I'm definitely more like I am going to create the visuals you know, like what your brand looks like. So the design more than the strategy, yeah, like I feel like I've got a decent understanding of the strategy, but that isn't at the moment. I'm thinking about it, but that isn't at the moment something that I particularly offer in depth.

Zoe Greenhalf: 25:27

Have you got any projects that you have particularly loved working on, or any projects that you would love to work on that haven't come your way yet, but you're like oh you know, I'm just waiting for this one thing to come along, or I have like industry or like a particular kind of yeah, I guess a particular kind of client like I would love to do branding for a coffee shop.

Liz Mosley: 25:51

I don't know why. It's like fixed in my mind and annoyingly like the perfect one came along not that long ago but I was like fully booked and I couldn't take it on, which was so frustrating because I was trying to have better boundaries about not saying yes to every job that came my way.

Zoe Greenhalf: 26:07

You might be inundated with coffee shop requests after this goes out.

Liz Mosley: 26:12

I'm currently in a yoga studio period. Well, basically I've got two yoga studio clients at the moment, having not done that before, which I'm actually really enjoying. So that's been really fun. And that is one of the things I absolutely love is I have not niched by industry. I guess I've niched by size of business. So I tend to work with small businesses. Usually it's like one person or maybe like a really small team.

Liz Mosley: 26:40

So I haven't niched by industry, which I love, because then I basically get to like deep dive into the different industries. So, like one one of the clients in Cardiff, so I got to go to her like her yoga class. I did. I had my first like was it Yin Yin yoga? I went to my first Yin yoga session, which was amazing, and so now I feel like I've discovered this whole other you know, like world and industry that I didn't really know about and I just really like that about. You know, like each different business and different industry, I get to sort of like deep dive into it and try and understand it more, and I always find that quite fun and exciting.

Zoe Greenhalf: 27:22

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Zoe Greenhalf: 28:09

Ps. If you are a small business doing things differently, an independent brand disrupting the status quo, or simply an unconventional, adventurous individual looking to create a positive impact, I love to hear from you about getting your story out there in the world and promoting you. Dm me on Instagram @themischiefmovement Right now on with the show, because I had a couple of questions come in from my MISCHIEF community actually, and I think I better ask them to you before I forget, or run out of time.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:47

So one of them was how important is photography when it comes to branding and design and finding the right kind or style of photographer that reflects your brand? I don't know how much you deal with the photography side of things, but I'm sure you've got an opinion on this.

Liz Mosley: 29:06

I absolutely have an opinion on this. I actually love this question because, controversially, I would say that investing in photography is well I don't know how to word this to not sound bad like almost like slightly more important than the visual branding, in that I think the photography has such a huge impact on how your visual brand looks. So I think you can make a really big impact on your branding by sorting out the photography. Probably maybe not okay, not more so than the visual branding, but I think sometimes we underestimate the impact that photography can have on influencing a brand and how it looks, and I think it's often a very cost-efficient way to elevate and improve your brand if you're short on budget, which is something that I talk a lot about. So, yeah, I would say, photography can have a big impact and is pretty important.

Liz Mosley: 30:09

I think the key is, yeah, find a photographer that reflects the style of your business. You'll see lots of photographers whose photography is very like there's lots of bright colors and it's really playful and it's really like bold, and then you'll have others where it's very calm and melistic. So I think I would always chat to my clients about this, about the visual branding you want to think, about how you want your brand to make people feel and how that's going to be perceived. What is it actually going to communicate to people? Because you want what your brand looks like to match people's experience of your business and your brand. So I think that's something to factor in when you're thinking about what photographer to work on or what props you're going to use, what poses, what clothes you're going to wear. All of those things factor in to a personal branding shoot with a photographer.

Liz Mosley: 31:05

But yeah, I think, if you've got the budget for it, I would 100% recommend doing it and it also makes your life so much easier in terms of keeping things looking consistent, creating content quickly and easily for social media. It's something I actually came up with an arrangement with a photographer in Cardiff where she gives me a bit of a discount because I do really regular like rolling photo shoots and we just work so good to like. She knows what I like. We work really well together. It feels really easy and natural and I think, yeah, if you like, build up and you don't have to do that, I mean, your photos can last you a really long time but like, yeah, so I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that was a brilliant answer.

Liz Mosley: 31:46

Really yeah, no totally, totally.

Zoe Greenhalf: 31:49

The other question that came in was and I think this is a good one as well, actually how important is it to inject your personality into your branding, for example, using colors that feel in tune with you?

Liz Mosley: 32:05

So there's a bit of a balance that you need here, which is thinking about who you need to have like a good understanding of what who your target audience is. So I think that should influence what your branding looks like. But also, if you have a personal brand, so like I would call mine a personal brand, because when people buy my services, they're working with me, you know like I'm the only person in the business, so it's all around me and my personality. So if you're building a personal brand, then I think it is important that your personality comes across. I think if you've got a bigger agency, you want to get personality across, but it doesn't necessarily need to be the personality of one person. If you're building a personal brand, then obviously it's the personality of that one person.

Liz Mosley: 32:54

So I actually I'm going to do a social music post about this, like next week because I think that getting your personality personality across in your branding is going to be more important than ever before, because, as people use AI more to create content, the content is going to become more generic and more bland, and so actually the way that you're going to stand out amongst all the extra content that's being created is by injecting your personality and effectively showing that you're not a robot. You know like people are going to. People want to buy from people, and so they want to know what you and like, what you're like, what your personality is like, what your interests are. You know what your personal takes are on particular topics, how you do things. You know like all of that behind the scene stuff that people really enjoy and connect with, I think is going to have more impact and be more effective, and so, yeah, I would say getting your personality across in your branding is going to be more important than ever before, and there's loads of different ways to do it. You know like everyone sort of does it differently, but I've seen people you know where they chat really regularly on their Instagram stories about what TV shows that they watch and that becomes like an ongoing way that they connect with their audience.

Liz Mosley: 34:13

Or you know, maybe it's that you share controversial opinions about your industry or you teach people how to do things that are really helpful for them. You know like maybe you've got a particular style of teaching that helps people. You know like it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be everything Like I think sometimes people worry when they're told that they have to show up in their business, that they worry that it means they have to share everything of themselves and you don't. You can show like the tiniest fraction of your personality and that can be enough for it to like stand out and differentiate you from other people and, ultimately, if you're a personal brand, it's your USP. Like you are the USP.

Zoe Greenhalf: 34:56

Hey there, just jumping in as I'm editing this to let you know that USP for non marketing folk is your Unique Selling Point. We all have one and we can all use it!

Liz Mosley: 35:08

You know like people are going to work with you, for you, and you're not going to have any competition there because no one else is like you. And you know there's so many businesses now. We see so many of them online. You know like it's really hard to find a USP and that's the USP that you'll always have.

Zoe Greenhalf: 35:26

Yeah, absolutely, and it's that kind of thing of tapping into who you are and being authentic about who you are.

Liz Mosley: 35:34

Yeah, and I think another thing to remember is again being authentic doesn't mean that you have to share everything, because sometimes I think people feel overwhelmed at a thought that they just have to like bear everything of themselves online, otherwise they're not being authentic, and I don't think that's true.

Zoe Greenhalf: 35:53

Yeah, I think one of the things that I definitely struggled with right at the beginning of my career as a footbed designer was like wanting to show my personality, wanting to come across as being really creative and stuff, but still feeling like I had to toe the line of professionalism and following a certain kind of protocol about things.

Zoe Greenhalf: 36:24

And one of the reasons I found this so difficult was because I was surrounded by a lot of people in other industries who were giving me bad advice for mine and I was listening to it. And I remember going to an interview for I didn't know some sort of like fashion buyers, assistant or something really sort of entry level wearing a suit and then seeing other girls in a really funky outfit and going, oh God, why am I wearing a suit? And I know why it was because I listened to my then boyfriend who worked at he was like an engineer, and he was like, well, you must wear a suit to your interview. And I was like, oh yeah, you're probably right. And then I got there and I was like, why am I doing this? This does not show my creative personality. And the same with CVs. I was being given really bad advice on how to write a CV and I would look at it and go that's just. That doesn't say anything about who I am.

Zoe Greenhalf: 37:17

So that was a really like long winded way of saying that. I think there is a struggle between showing your creativity and and remaining professional without going too far either side of that. How do you feel about that?

Liz Mosley: 37:41

I love this because I think professionalism is such an interesting one and I feel like it's something that we're really having to unpick. And that's exactly it isn't. It Is that it's so different in different industries, and I've definitely, like it's always been the case where, when I've worked with other people, that there were different rules for the creative team and there were for everybody else. So I used to work in a really big university in London that had an in house team and basically pretty much everybody else would dress fairly smart to work and the creative team there was literally no expectations.

Liz Mosley: 38:20

I actually had to remember her hilarious conversation with my boss in the job interview where I asked her like what the dress clothes? And she was like, oh, there isn't a really dress code, you can wear whatever you want. She was like, maybe don't come in and like thigh high boots, and it just made me laugh so much that that was the item that she decided to single out to avoid, but like, yeah, so it's interesting. So for me, there's never, ever been an expectation to dress smart at work. So it was almost like the professionalism had already been deconstructed in that area in the like creative professions. But I think there's like so many things, so many hangouts we have about professionalism, which I think we're needing to start to unpick, and like I don't know if you remember this, but I remember, like back when I was younger, like people having to like cover up their tattoos when they worked in like in.

Zoe Greenhalf: 39:17

I used to work in boots and I used to have to put a plaster over my nose piercing. Yeah, it's terrific. People are like what have you done to know? I know.

Liz Mosley: 39:27

So bizarre and like stuff like that.

Liz Mosley: 39:29

No, it's just just crazy to think about because we have become, like more accepting of just like people's diverse appearances.

Liz Mosley: 39:37

But I do think that there's loads of hangups that we still have about how we should behave and how we should be professional, and it's kind of a hard one because it is different for different industries. You know, like, for example, I don't know and maybe this is something I feel like this is still something that I'm working through and I need to deconstruct but like, say, I went and had a meeting with a lawyer and they turned up in jeans and a hoodie. Like I would find that quite like off putting and mainly because I have been trained, I guess, through like TV and what I've experienced, that you know, this is what a lawyer looks like. I mean, it doesn't need to be that way, because what they wear has no impact on how they like deliver their services. But it's interesting how in so like you know, in creative industries, you would expect someone. I would be freaked out if I met with a graphic designer and they were wearing a suit.

Zoe Greenhalf: 40:32

I look back and go. What was I thinking?

Liz Mosley: 40:34

You know, but at the same time, if you have like interviews, is a weird one because you know there is this expectation that you like put on like you know your best sort of like you present yourself, you know like really professionally, like I think there is this sort of like artificial way that we're expected to present ourselves. But yeah, so I think there's not going to be, there's not like a one size fits all, but I do think that we need to like deconstruct or challenge. We need to challenge the way we think about professionalism and I think I've really noticed that a lot since starting my own business and, I guess, being incomplete, 100% control of like how I present myself to the world, like it's been something that I've had to think about and I've actually had some interesting conversations with people about it on the podcast. I think like swearing is another interesting one. You know, like like I don't swear loads in my personal life, so actually I think it would be really weird if I swore a lot like on social media and stuff, whereas some people do swear a lot and I actually think other people really connect with that and relate with that, because that's how they communicate. It's not that like one way is right and one way is wrong. It is going to put off some people. You know, some people don't like swearing. That's just the way it goes, you know like. So you kind of have to think.

Liz Mosley: 41:58

I think you have to think about all these things, you know like, just think about it a bit with a bit of intentionality. You know like, okay, this is how I want to present myself online. What are the potential pitfalls and what are the potential sort of positives, and like weigh that up and I think you'll find that about all sorts of different things. Yeah, when you like choose what you're going to talk about or what your messaging is going to be, but also if you don't swear anywhere in your content and then someone works with you and you're swearing all the time, like that could also be off putting.

Liz Mosley: 42:29

So I think and this is the big thing with branding for me, especially with a personal brand, it's like presenting to the world accurately what it's like to work with you. So you want the look of your brand to accurately reflect what your business is like. So, for example, if I had super corporate branding that looked like I didn't like a bank or something, that would be so confusing for people when they actually worked with me, because I am like the least corporate person ever and would never like show up in that way. So I mean, that's an extreme example, but it's that sort of thing you know it's like and I think that's where the authenticity comes into. It is like how do you communicate with people what you actually like so that they know what to expect when they work with you?

Zoe Greenhalf: 43:15

Yeah, I'm just thinking back now to when I was writing some of those first CVs and like even later on, when I revisited them and I updated them and things changed. And I think at the beginning it was very much a people pleasing exercise.

Liz Mosley: 43:30

It was like what do they want to hear? Yeah, what do they want to hear.

Zoe Greenhalf: 43:33

I've got to make sure I include all these specific things and these particular words, whereas as I got older and more experienced and more confident, it became actually I want to. I want to write things, like you know, in my skill set. I have a great sense of humor. Some people look at that and go why would you put that on a CV? Why not Like? I want them to know that it's actually quite fun to work with me, because otherwise I'm just Tom Deco Harry. I'm not me.

Zoe Greenhalf: 44:00

So then I think you can. You start to pick out some of the kind of key points that you do want to either put people off or attract those right people. I think as you get older and more experienced that becomes easier because you're not quite so worried about. I've got to get my first job. I've got to get on the ladder. I've got to get that first bit of experience, in which case you're like what are all the keywords that need to come to CV? Yeah, yeah, totally.

Liz Mosley: 44:28

And it's usually your parents who advise you on how to do that, who, like for me. I remember when I was applying for jobs, my dad had been in the same job his entire life, so he'd like written one CV like about 30 years ago, but like a long time ago, and so, yeah, I think that is interesting. One of the things that has been really funny for me actually is when I started my business and I was like writing content, I'd get my husband to proofread it and he was like, liz, you write really formally. Like he was basically having to go through and make my writing sound like how I would talk.

Liz Mosley: 45:05

So you know he would take all the I have done this to I've done this because that's what I would say, like I wouldn't say I have done this, and so, like it was so interesting and what it made me realize is that I was still writing content, like I was writing an English Literature essay at school. I was writing how I'd been taught to write at school, which was not a tour reflective of my brand. It was like reflected of what I needed to do to get a good mark in an English Literature essay, and so I've had to, like I now have to basically go through everything that I write and sort of make it more casual, because I'm just like it's like ingrained in me to write really formally and I just think that's that was so interesting to me, because I didn't realize I was doing it until he pointed out.

Zoe Greenhalf: 45:53

Do you, do you still write your own copy or do you get somebody to help you with it?

Liz Mosley: 45:59

I still write my own mostly. Yeah, I mean, I haven't. Basically I haven't paid a copywriter. I could do with paying a copywriter, for sure, but I've never. I haven't.

Zoe Greenhalf: 46:09

That isn't something that I've invested in, but yeah there are other things that you outsource in your business.

Liz Mosley: 46:16

Yes, so I outsource podcast editing mainly because I couldn't be bothered to learn.

Zoe Greenhalf: 46:21

I know you do, and I'm like oh God, I need that too I know, yeah, so I outsource that and then I outsource a few other bits.

Liz Mosley: 46:32

So I actually had this really amazing. I was feeling really overwhelmed with my business and I had this really amazing coaching session with this lady called Lisa Marie, who's business is called Solitude I think that's what it's called. Anyway, she gave me some really good advice about outsourcing, and I think I never felt like I had the budget, and so she was like try and find ways that you can make your outsourcing cost neutral. I hadn't even heard she. She was from more of a corporate background. I was like I didn't have cost, what do you mean?

Liz Mosley: 47:02

And so, basically, one of the things that I had learned about myself was I find it really hard to finish off project projects, and so, with my branding clients, one of the stumbling blocks for me was creating the brand guidelines at the end and delivering all of the assets to them, because I was, I had done all the creative work, and then that, to me, felt like mundane and boring, and so I found it really hard to be motivated to do it. It like some people love it like. I know other designers who are like. They're like listen to this right now.

Zoe Greenhalf: 47:38

Oh, so that's why it took ages, I know.

Liz Mosley: 47:42

Totally. But like some I mean some designers, I know, because I've talked about this before and they're like what that's like? My favorite bit is like putting all together. But anyway, once so I had this coaching session, was chatting through that with her, and so she was like outsource it and increase your rates by the amount that you are going to have to pay to outsource it, because it's totally legitimate to like increase your prices. And I was like, oh, my goodness, yeah.

Liz Mosley: 48:08

And so I now not always, but mostly outsource, like that finishing, wrapping it up part of the project. It's helped me so much like to be, you know, like get projects finished in the like a timely manner and get everything over to my clients like really well. And so that's another thing that I outsource. But I find it really difficult. Is that always? It's that like growing pains of growth. Isn't it where it's like do I have the budget to do this? But if I don't do this, like how can I then like grow because I feel so overwhelmed? So I feel like I'm definitely in a bit of that point at the moment where it's like, yeah, experiencing those growing pains and trying to work out how to do it in a sustainable way, I guess.

Zoe Greenhalf: 48:57

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the podcast. Actually, where did the idea come from to actually launch, because one minute I imagine you're designing and then the next minute you have a podcast. But I know it probably wasn't like that. So what was the process like between you going from your design world into? I think I'd like to start a podcast.

Liz Mosley: 49:24

I think it's like something that I thought about for a while. I think I thought, oh, I reckon I'd enjoy that, but I hadn't really given it much more thought than that. And then I became. Well, I was kind of friends with my podcast producer, lucy, on social media and we were just like chatting and I think I probably said something along the lines of you know, sometimes I think about starting a podcast, but everyone's doing it. So then I'm the sort of person that if everyone's talking about a TV show, I basically refuse to watch it for like. And then I'm there watching it like five years afterwards and I absolutely love it, but I refuse to watch it at the time because it annoys me that everyone's talking about it I love that you do have quite a rebellious side to you, really don't you?

Liz Mosley: 50:10

And then and so, like it was the same with the podcast, I was like, well, everyone's doing it, I'm not going to do that, even though I knew that it would be something that I would probably love, anyway. So I was chatting to her and she was talking about how she felt like she really needed branding, and then we were like, oh, my goodness, let's do a skill swap. So then that's how it started. So basically she agreed to edit the first series. I started off doing it in series. I was like I'll do one series and see if I like it. You know what's the risk? You know we did a skills swap, so I did her branding. She edited the first series of my podcast and basically there was no way I was ever going to stop once I'd started because I absolutely loved it.

Liz Mosley: 50:48

And I again, like I didn't go into it with much strategy, like I knew it would probably be good for my business, but I didn't really have a plan for how or why. But it has been amazing for my business. But it took me a long time of doing it for those things to start to happen and for me to start to realize what an amazing impact it was on my business and I didn't really go into it. Yeah, again, I didn't really go into it that strategically. It's more like I want to have these awesome conversations, and the one that surprised the outcome, that has surprised me the most, is how it's grown my network.

Liz Mosley: 51:28

And, again, like I didn't go into it for this, but actually realizing that once you chat to someone for an hour about a topic, like you actually feel quite like connected and bonded, and so then I realized that, not with everybody, but with quite a few guests, it like built this friendship and this connection, and I guess it just meant that, like you know, I could message them and be like oh, I've been thinking about this, what are your thoughts on it? You know, or like maybe like work together on a project or you know, all these kind of things that I didn't really didn't really think about beforehand. But yeah, it's just built my network, you know, like quite a few. Like it was really cool actually, because I had Adobe Max, like quite a lot of people that I'd interviewed were there, and so it was just nice being able to like catch up with them all and, yeah, have that sort of connection. I guess that we'd recorded a podcast episode together.

Zoe Greenhalf: 52:18

Have you got any super exciting guests coming up that you could give us a little exclusive one?

Liz Mosley: 52:27

I have. I'm not sure if people would. Well, he hasn't booked in yet, so maybe I should say no, I don't think so.

Liz Mosley: 52:35

I have got a very exciting one for the end of the year. I've recorded a really nice episode with Lucy, who's my podcast producer Well, I shouldn't say nice A really fun episode where we basically she interviews me all about the podcast for like the hundredth episode. So I think that I mean it's quite a lot of us just giggling about silly things, but it was quite a fun one to record and I did have like Lisa Kongdon, on which I know you shared that episode today, and I was like starstruck when she came on the screen. I was like hello.

Liz Mosley: 53:13

Honestly, I was like, yeah, I was starstruck and she was amazing. Like I loved her episode, partly because I love what she was talking about all about like starting her business later in life, but also she's just amazing. So, yeah, that was really cool. But I need to continue with my rejection challenge and I am sort of inviting some bigger names.

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:35

How's your rejection challenge going, by the way? How's it going, how's it working out for you?

Liz Mosley: 53:40

Terribly. Well, no, it depends Terribly, in the sense that everybody's saying yes, right. Well, not everybody, but terribly in the in the sense that so originally I was like I'm going to do it for six months. Now I'm just going to do it probably for the rest of my life.

Liz Mosley: 53:54

But, like, yeah, terribly, in the sense that I realize after pitching for things, then I have to do the things that people have said yes for, and I had feel like I had less capacity, especially like pitching for work, because I didn't have capacity for more projects I need to get, I need to start, I need to start looking for sponsors for next year for the podcast. I'm going to start pitching for those again. The one that was really tricky is like podcast guests. Like quite a lot of people said yes and so then I like got my podcast booked up guests until like spring next year, and so I had to stop asking people because I couldn't be like oh, would you be on my podcast in like May 2024? Because no one's going to want that. So, yeah, so I've had to slow down on those because a lot, a lot of my pitches were podcast related. But yeah, so it's been amazing and it's gone really well.

Liz Mosley: 54:54

I haven't I'm nowhere near reaching 100 rejections, but I feel like the mindset shift is there now and so it's just. I just need to carve out time to like keep, keep going for it. But yeah, I do have a list of companies that I would like to collaborate with Part of it. For me is the time to find the right person to email, so yeah, so yeah, it's basically it hasn't gone well in the sense that I haven't reached 100. It's gone amazingly in if I look at the stats of how many people have said yes compared to no. And yeah, I just need to carve out time to get back on it and to get pitching for things again.

Zoe Greenhalf: 55:37

It's the kind of challenge that everybody should just adopt, you know, when it comes to finding something that really means a lot to them but is scary, like you say, you gamify it.

Liz Mosley: 55:49

Yeah, I love that and it's like win, win for me now, because then I can make a big song and dance about it when I finally get to 100 rejections and, like those, you know, the people that have said no have helped me reach my goal.

Liz Mosley: 56:01

So, yeah, it's just win, win and it just makes it more fun. And, like, one of the highlights was yeah, I mentioned this before like I got to do a keynote, a closing keynote, a conference about it. So I've now created this talk, basically all about how the title of the talk which I think you'll enjoy because it is quite provocative was basically rejection is the only way to tell if your branding is working for your business. And so it's this whole idea that if you're not experiencing rejection, something's not working and something's, something's sort of gone wrong. I, you're not pushing yourself enough or your branding's not like, because your branding should repel people as well as attract people. So then it's not doing that. You know, like, maybe you've created a really bland brand and everyone feels a bit like whatever about it. So, yeah, that was really fun to put that together.

Zoe Greenhalf: 56:52

Turn that on its head, though. Listen. Where can people find out more about you and listen to your amazing podcast?

Liz Mosley: 56:59

So if you search building your brand, you'll find my podcast, and then, in terms of finding me on social media, I'm at Liz M Mosley. That rogue M in the middle is really annoying. There's some poor woman in America called Liz Mosley who gets tagged as me. Quite I know it's so funny. Sometimes I feel like I should just message her and beg her for the handle, but I'm used to it now. So yeah, liz M Mosley, my website is LizMosleynet. If you Google me, I should come up in all the different places. But yeah, thank you so much for having me. I love talking to you.

Zoe Greenhalf: 57:32

No, thank you so much, liz, it's been amazing.

Liz Mosley: 57:35

Oh, thanks.

Zoe Greenhalf: 57:38

So in case you missed them. Number one just because you don't begin your career feeling ambitious or wanting your own business doesn't mean you can't change your mind. We evolve as we go through our lives, and our experiences will alter the way we see things and what we strive for. So it's never too late to try something different. Two setting yourself fun challenges is a great way to push yourself out of your comfort zone, build resilience and turn something scary into a game. Three find that one friend who totally gets you or a person you connect with over similar ideas and create an accountability partnership, help each other through the difficulties and become each other's biggest cheerleaders. Four genuine connections and communities will lift and inspire you when you take the time to find them and then invest in nurturing these relationships. Five don't sit at home waiting for inspiration to hit. When you get out, to go to events, chat to people, listen to talks or wake up with a different view out of your window, you will tap into new ideas and feel reinvigorated and stimulated in your creativity. Six creativity doesn't have to have any purpose other than the process and joy of simply creating. Seven hang out with children. When you can think, play or see things like a kid, you will have a totally different perspective and level of enthusiasm for whatever you are doing. Eight if you're a brand owner or thinking of starting your own brand, you need your visual identity to match people's experience of your business. Ask yourself how you want people to feel when they come into contact with your brand. This can also be applied to yourself, by the way. So how do you convey your identity, who you are and what you stand for, through the way that you dress and the style that you choose? Nine being authentic doesn't mean you have to show every aspect of yourself or your life, but showing just a part of who you are will help you build genuine connections and allow people to see what it's like to be or work with the real you. And number 10, outsource the tasks you hate doing and make them cost-neutral by increasing your rates to cover the expenses.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:00:14

I hope you loved today's episode and it made you think differently or perhaps nudged you into changing something in your life that's not working for you. I'd love to give you a shout out right here on the podcast too, so do let me know what you think, what you'd like to hear more of or how you've been inspired. Let's keep in touch over on Instagram at the Mischief movement Ah, it's changed, did you see that? Or click the link in the show notes to sign up to my Mischief mail newsletter, where you'll get exclusive insights on upcoming episodes and your chance to submit questions to future guests. But shh, don't tell anyone, it's our secret. Now, please keep spreading the word about the podcast. You're doing an amazing job, and I'm also super grateful for your five star ratings on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, because these seriously help my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose Mischief over mediocre. Have a great week and keep making Mischief, ciao.