Exploring Life's Big Questions: Challenges, Choices and Change with Clay Lowe

Perhaps, like me, you've spent nights awake, contemplating the meaning of life and questioning your purpose in this vast universe. Well, philosophy-lover and storyteller, Clay Lowe, joins me to alleviate some of those existential quandaries, adding his unique insights to the big questions we often grapple with. Clay, an ex-US Army Officer turned Training & Development Consultant and Coach, is a true testament to the joy of embracing a diverse set of passions and interests, defying the confining norms of specialisation.

What does personal growth truly mean? How often do we pause to question our ingrained beliefs? Clay and I dive headlong into these questions as he urges us to cultivate curiosity and scrutinise our beliefs and habits. We discuss the power of vulnerability, the therapeutic value of journaling and the profound impact of small decisions on our life trajectory. Clay shares his daily ritual, 'Clay Time', a practice that fuels his creativity and sense of inner peace. 

In this thought-provoking chat, we ponder on the concept of living life as if it were your last day. Clay introduces us to the Bushido concept of living as if you were already dead and the liberating potential it holds. He also shares his musings on the afterlife and his curiosity about his last thought. So, are you ready to challenge your beliefs and embrace a more conscious way of living? Join us, and let's explore the journey of life together.

Transcript

Clay Lowe: 0:00

What do you think? is this the only life we have?

Zoe Greenhalf: 0:04

This week I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with the wonderful Clay Lowe, huge philosophy lover, writer, storyteller, podcast audio lover, ex infantry officer, leadership and development consultant and coach and if you think that's a lot of labels, keep listening to find out why. I love meeting people who embrace all their passions and refused to fit into a box, and Clay was no exception. Going by the pseudonym of 'Soucruz er' on his social channels and podcast, Clay questions everything and he will have you questioning things too by the end. He also has easily the most captivating radio voice I think I've ever heard, which will literally soothe you into some pretty powerful thinking as we take a deep dive into the meaning of life, those sliding door moments that change everything and what it takes to live happily, purposefully and unapologetically. Let's go.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:09

Hello, it's Zoe and welcome, or welcome back to the Mischief Movement Podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more 'hell yeah' in their life. Consider this your one way ticket out of midlife mediocracy towards fun and positive impact, via playful disruption. Wouldn't you love to wake up and feel like a total badass? How about breaking some rules, throwing two fingers up to society and doing more of the things you love. I'm talking full on freedom, adventure and those meaningful connections I know you've been craving. Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it. I'll be picking the brains of some true game changers and mischief makers so I can share what I find and hopefully inspire you to shake things up, do more of what makes you feel alive and boldly rebel against the ordinary. I've no idea what I'm doing, to be honest, but I've got a mission and I'm here to start a movement. It's going to be quite the adventure. Care to join me? OK, here goes. All right, then Clay, what is your main mischief?

Clay Lowe: 2:23

So, if you can, you give me some context now what does that mean to you? the main mischief?

Zoe Greenhalf: 2:32

Well, I would say it's what you enjoy doing. What are the things that make you feel alive? What are the things that light you up? What are the things that keep you busy?

Clay Lowe: 2:43

Light me up and keep me busy, and there's so many things that do that. That's one of my biggest challenges is that, if you, you know, you had a concept of being born out of time, sometimes I think I've meant to be a renaissance man or renaissance man, because I am so attracted to so many different things and the interest quite vary. So, but my main, my main mischief, if I was to choose one I'm sure we'll talk about lots of them today I'm a massive fan of I'm going to say philosophy, but philosophy, not academic philosophy, not analytical philosophy, but philosophy, as my main man, socrates, would have, you know, talked about philosophy, which is about how to live, which is about people, what makes it, what is this life for and what is your life for, what is my life for being in pursuit of that? that question Is the thing that really turns me on, and we kind of think that one day I might get an answer, but actually there is no real answer to that.

Zoe Greenhalf: 3:59

I thought you're going to give me one then.

Clay Lowe: 4:01

No, there's no answer. It's an ongoing journey. It is that the whole life journey aspect. And you constantly, i find myself constantly evolving, shifting, refining, sculpting along the way, but enjoying the journey along the way because I think sometimes you can get, you can get lost in that pursuit and feel like you're missing something and that somehow maybe something's wrong with you. I think what she relax and embrace the journey, because it's what life is about, i think, and it becomes a much more engaging process.

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:44

Yeah, yeah, i definitely have felt like that. I just went through this period where I was like what am I even doing? you know, like I have to find my purpose, i have to understand what I'm here to do, and the minute I let go of that and went, okay, it doesn't matter, why am I taking it so seriously? and just focused on doing more of the things that really you know, light me up And life got a whole lot easier and less Yeah, just less intense.

Zoe Greenhalf: 5:17

It started off as something, a fun little challenge or let's see if I can work out what my purpose is and Did just stop being fun because I was just taking it so seriously and getting really frustrated. Actually, and I'm also somebody like you who would say I have a lot of interests not all of them very related and I've also found that really challenging because I think so often you're expected to just pick one thing and do that and specialize and get good whatever. And it's only now that I'm really kind of rebelling against that idea and saying no, like I made of so many different interests and so many different things, and that's what gives me my unique perspective on life. I'm sure you'd say the same.

Clay Lowe: 6:04

No, absolutely. And there's a quote and if I could find it for you in a moment that I kind of live by, and it's it's the end line of it is the specialization is for insects. I don't know if you've heard that quote by Robert Heinlein?"

Clay Lowe: 6:20

Yeah, here we go, you ready. now Take eight from your edits. Specialization is for insects. A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion butcher or hall connoisseurship, design a building, right a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, come for the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects and that's Robert Heinlein quote . Don't know if you're familiar with the concept of ARETE from ancient Greece. it's a. It's a, it's a modernized version of the same thing, because the Greeks were quite in the fact that people should All things that is possible to be excellent in so be, you know, physically, mentally, intellectually, spiritually and practically excellent. So they strive for excellence in all things that they did. But yeah, this specialization thing is just. It's a hard one for me to do it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 7:45

If you had to choose your specialism now, what do you think it might be If I put you on the spot?

Clay Lowe: 7:52

You wouldn't be able to because I really give you a specialization Now. So here's the thing is, like I understand, like you know, humans kind of like to Identify, classify, go clarifying, classify things because it makes it easy for us to understand things. So people Try and put us in a box. But as my man Kierkegaard said, you know, once you label me, you negate me, gonna shut down all of my possibilities, don't you?

Zoe Greenhalf: 8:22

I love that.

Clay Lowe: 8:23

I love that, yes, and so I struggle against the box. But I understand the box that people need to put. People label people so that they can comprehend, understand And know how to relate to you. So I'm able to now give people labels but not be attached to the label myself. So it's like, okay, i know that, i know that you need the label, but I don't need it. So I am, i'm happy to assign a label to myself to help others to relate to me.

Zoe Greenhalf: 8:56

I think well, that would certainly help me with your intro. I don't know what I'm gonna call you if you don't give me one.

Clay Lowe: 9:03

Speaking of intro, i'll give you my intro now. My name is Clay Lowe, so yeah, so if I was, you know, i guess, a bio for me and I could give you a little bit of a, you know, my sort of background. I'm from the states, New Jersey. I cut my teeth in the work brawl as a infantry officer. I went to West Point, took a commission as an infantry officer, second lieutenant, went to Germany as a Platoon leader and, you know, did all that kind of stuff you do as a, as a young man, you know, jumping out of airplanes and things, of all that kind of stuff. And because I was really attracted to the idea of adventure, right, just as a kid, adventure was like I gotta go off, have these great adventures, see all these you know things. And the army actually did do that for me.

Clay Lowe: 9:53

So anybody listening to this, i recommend it if you're not already young and you got kids that need to get, because you go out and you see things that you would not otherwise be able to do and or see. I know there's a You know nasty side to the whole thing as well, but just you know, it was that adventure that I was attracted to and kind of set off to, to sort of do that, and then I left. I went to work for this financial organization. It was part of my history, is part of my bug. I went to work for Merrill Lynch as a financial consultant It was.

Clay Lowe: 10:31

I guess I had this thing with probably many of us too. You want to, and I'm sure it's here as well. You get this, the American dream, as it were. You gotta get the big house, the big cars, get the wife, get the kids, get all those things. Those were like the measures of success have lots of money. And so I went in pursuit of that.

Clay Lowe: 10:57

And sorry if I'm always throwing quotes out, but one of my other favorite quotes is that people who think money buys happiness haven't been rich enough long enough. And I remember reading that at some point in time as a financial consultant and thinking I'm chasing the wrong thing here. And yeah, it just wasn't. It was challenging and it was interesting, but it wasn't sort of soul fulfilling, it was just yeah, you go, you do And I love people, so that always made it a cool part of it. But the actual job and not feeling like I was contributing to something larger And I think that's some of that stems from or comes out, like in the Army, right, you're doing something that's for others, things that are greater than yourself, so there's a cause that you're doing this for, and when that was, i'm gonna say, taken away, but after coming out of the Army I didn't have that. So, being a civilian, the civilian world and just not oriented on that, No, no, they're two different worlds, aren't they?

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:04

Yeah?

Clay Lowe: 12:05

Yeah, so that sense of serving others or serving something greater than myself was kind of missing that. And then, and corporate, i was just working to share hold of value, wasn't it? How are we increasing profitability? Yeah, not the soul fulfilling kind of thing Doesn't that went to work for? and I don't know. I'm not actually answering who, what I do, i'm giving you my back.

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:31

Look, you just feel free to tell me as much or as little about your story as you want. Whatever you want people to know about you.

Clay Lowe: 12:38

We're into my story. This isn't my. Who are you? elevated pitch line. This is the Clay Lowe story. So, yeah, then I went to work for General Electric as a process engineer, and the theme here is that I was trying a lot of different jobs looking for that thing. That was like okay.

Zoe Greenhalf: 12:58

What were you looking for, do you think?

Clay Lowe: 13:00

I was looking for something that had meaning and purpose to it not just making money for some joint corporation, yeah, and stuff. So I wanted something that had meaning behind it. So if you're gonna be spending all your time and you're working hard and doing that, i wanted it to be for something, not just because someone's paying you some money and we wanna make more money, because that keeps the shareholders happy. That just seemed so hollow to me And I fell into training and this is leading into where I'm still in training and development or learning and development, or learning and performing And then the name changes all the time. But it's all about personal development for me and helping other people along in that journey and some capacity in others. So whether it's a skill-based aspect or if you're ready for the journey of wanting to go inward and do more of the consciousness related or sort of transformational journey, happy to support people in that sort of space too, so kind of fit that whole spectrum.

Clay Lowe: 14:21

But I got into corporate training and just fell in love with the idea of helping people do something that they weren't capable of doing before, and the army is largely a part. All we do is train. We're training for war all the time, but our life is training, so it's something I was used to doing, and so it felt nice to be back in that space of training and developing and focusing on helping people to achieve things that they wanted to achieve in life. And I've been doing that now, i guess, for 23, 24 years. So I've been doing it for a long time, both in and out of mostly for myself, as in self-employed. I think. I left full-time employment in 2004.

Clay Lowe: 15:13

So since then I've been doing stuff out here in the wide world of coaching and training And I do love philosophy and personal growth and spirituality and all these things that we get to explore. Who are we as human beings and why are we here and what's it all for And what is it? Why are we doing what we do? Do you ever ask yourself that question? You look around sometimes. I look around and I see people just we're just doing stuff And they're like well, but why? Why are we all doing what we doing? What's it cannot for?

Zoe Greenhalf: 15:54

Yeah, i had a conversation last week where we were literally discussing the need to cultivate more curiosity and not just accept things as the way they are, because that's just the way they are. We have to start to ask more questions and discover for ourselves. Maybe there are better ways of doing things.

Clay Lowe: 16:20

And It's not a natural thing for humans, though You know we're a herd animal, so we like conformity, we like certainty, and so once I have a certain whether the pattern is right or wrong, i know that if I do X I'm gonna get Y, and we kind of try and we fight hard to keep that comfort zone, circle control. We do fight hard to keep that in place. So you're right, i think, once you to question everything and get into that space of where did this come from? Why do I believe what I believe? Why do I behave the way that I behave? I call it a breadcrumb exercise, and it's worth doing if people are listening Is if you just, you know, note a week, take a week just to kind of note your habits, note your habits of beliefs, your habits of thinking, your habits of you know sort of feeling and reacting, just notice all your habitual ways of doing things And then kind of trace the origin, find the origin.

Clay Lowe: 17:28

So why is it that I believe this thing? Where did this come from? Was it just something that my parents told me? Was it something that I picked up for my religious leaders? You know where did this thing come from? Or is it because it's something? because the thing with our thinking is we don't we're so skilled at thinking. is that we and we don't think about our thinking anymore. So a lot of time we're just doing something. One of my books back here is called The Conscious Robot. You know, we got this program and we're just doing stuff And we forget even where the origin of. You know why I behave the way I behave, why I like the thing that I like, and so this breadcrumb exercise encourages you to trace back.

Clay Lowe: 18:13

Where did this actual, where did this thing come from? Where does this belief come from? What's driving it? And go all the way back to where you can remember where you kind of picked it up from, and then ask the question of does this still serve me? I mean, i've been believing it, but that doesn't mean that it's true. So does it still serve me? for you know what I want it to do, like you know, for instance, my you know my mom was. She lost her mom when she was very young, and so she had to look after her we're back to. Basically, she had to be the mother for her brother and her sister and, you know, raise them, and so I think she had a fear that if she died, what would happen to me? So from almost birth, i think I came out of the womb she was putting me to work. She's like you can't depend on anyone, no one except yourself. You can't even depend on me. So that was the belief system that was put into my head that you only can depend on, and it has consequences. So I don't get very close to people because it's like, well, i can let people into you know so far, but I don't wanna rely on anybody, so you know. So it does have.

Clay Lowe: 19:27

It had benefits. So it made me very independent, it made me resilient in that sense and it made me not ever succumb to peer pressure. When I was a kid I didn't have to fit in, i just did whatever I wanted to do and didn't care if people liked me didn't like me. So it had those benefits. But the other benefits is, you know, you never really let people get close because, like, yeah, we don't even need to rely on your mom, but that's what she kind of, that's what she programmed me to believe and I just accepted that because you don't know any better as a kid, do you? So you know then. So I'm tracing that and picking and finding okay, well, that's where that comes from.

Clay Lowe: 20:10

Then it allows me, you know, in the present day, to say, okay, well, maybe I might start letting people into the inner circle or not, who knows? but you know you can make that conscious choice, can't you? So I picked that up from her. The other thing I picked up from her was this idea about, you know, never failing. So she was getting because she had to do what she did. So education was super important and you know, wasn't allowed to get anything less than an A, and so there was a lot of pressure for me to perform academically in that way and also just not to fail. You know it's like, ah, and, but then again it has benefits and then it has costs that come with that, and so you know, working backwards to think, okay, well, where did that kind of drive come from? Then you're able to make your own decisions, because we have to, i think, unpack all the things that our parents gave us. Now, one of the book our parents do you is this a PG podcast?

Zoe Greenhalf: 21:11

No.

Clay Lowe: 21:12

Okay, so there's a book called Our Parents Fucked Us Up, and so well, what it's about then? yeah, and because you think about it, you're a mom, aren't you So? and your kids are. You're only.

Zoe Greenhalf: 21:27

And I worry about this all the time

Clay Lowe: 21:29

You're gonna do the best that you can for them. And whatever fears and doubts and worries that you have, you'll pass on to them. Even and it's interesting because I know that we won't, don't consciously want, but kids are way more perceptive than we think and they pick up on this stuff, even the things we're trying to shield them from. They pick up on that And so. But there's no way to get around that. And but at some point, as an adult, you've got to. You know okay, well, what did my parents pass on to me and what am I gonna keep and what am I going to say? okay, well, that doesn't serve me anymore and kind of let go. But that's a lot of work, and so a lot of times people don't don't want to do that work.

Zoe Greenhalf: 22:17

No, well it goes back to that. It goes back to that thing about well, i'm in my nice comfortable bubble, why do I wanna go and and rock the boat, isn't?

Clay Lowe: 22:24

Exactly. I don't wanna look beneath the veil, i'm afraid of what I might see.

Zoe Greenhalf: 22:27

Exactly.

Clay Lowe: 22:29

And and and you know. Another thought experiment I did once. It was how do you, if you were to lose all your memories, like, had amnesia, right, but you still know how to do all those sort of you know bodily functions and you know do all the motor skills, but you just had no recollection of your past? How would you know who to be? It's a tough one, isn't it Like? and it's just so much of who you are is from other people and other things.

Zoe Greenhalf: 22:58

Well, i mean, you get a blank page, don't you, And you start all over again, but in what capacity? that's the same and what capacity that's totally different. I don't know.

Clay Lowe: 23:08

Yeah, that's it. It's like, oh, how do, and so we, you know, and we and it's.

Zoe Greenhalf: 23:12

Do these kind of things keep you awake at night when you're lying in bed.

Clay Lowe: 23:18

Well, it's just kind of things that are always bouncing around in my head. Yes, i'm a massive note taker, so you know, like you know all myself, like from this morning, for instance, my question that I was pursuing is around. I was watching a sci-fi thing and it was essentially it was about this. It was about meaning and purpose, and it was from an android that actually had. There was a sentient robot that believed in the goddess and she they were talking about purpose and meaning and her owner, i guess, was like well, you know, that's kind of odd, because your purpose is built right into your programming. And then she remarked so you know, it isn't always about finding the answer, it's the process of seeking. You can also find enlightenment.

Clay Lowe: 24:14

And I was like yeah, So I've been ruminating that's been what's been bouncing around in my head this morning and thinking, yeah, so, because I've always considered myself to be, that's like a seeker, but seeking for seeking. So I'm not even looking for anything. So some people ask me oh, are you looking? I'm not. I'm at my happiest just to seek it. I don't even need to find anything. It's just seeking for seeking sake, just the same as knowledge. I like knowledge for knowledge. So I don't even know.

Clay Lowe: 24:47

You know three quarters of these. You know all these books. The listeners can't see it, but it's just. This room is just full of hundreds of books in here, and yeah, and they don't some of them. The oddest things is just, i just had an interest and just, okay, well, i'll read that one. But it's not related to doing anything of an academic pursuit, it's not for work. It's just, as you mentioned earlier about curiosity. It was like whatever reason, that topic came into my head And so now I want to learn about it And I probably will never use it again, but who knows?

Clay Lowe: 25:21

But it's just all in there And so yeah there's loads of nothing keeps me up at night, As my wife will attest to, I fall asleep in three seconds. I never really struggled with the sleep, sleep thing. I'm a good sleeper.

Zoe Greenhalf: 25:47

It's series two and I'm excited to be back partnering with Ply Club, again, a brand. his mission is to change the attitude towards vulnerability and to encourage more conversation around it in order to increase real human connection. The vehicle for these conversations is clothing, or connection. clothing as it's become known, and connection is one of our core values. So to bring more people together and help you rebel against staying the same, ply Club are offering a cheeky 10% discount when you use the code MISCHTIF at the checkout. Sustainable, organic and rebellious, of course. Ply Club also uses 50% of their profits to fund proactive suicide prevention in the form of coaching, support and awareness raising, which enables people to understand their emotions and express how they feel constructively. Become a vulnerable with us. For more info on the brand or to buy online, go to plytclubcouk or follow on Instagram at plytclubhq. Now on with the show.

Clay Lowe: 26:59

I do get up early. I'm like a 4. 30/5am guy, but I get all my it's. When I do my it's my Clay Time. I call it because I've got time to be quiet. Nobody wants anything from you at 5am. Oh yeah, nobody wants you, and then that's you know. So from between 5 and 7 is clay time, and I go to the gym after that and then the rest of the world can have whatever it is that they want everything else as a bonus from there.

Zoe Greenhalf: 27:32

So as long as.

Clay Lowe: 27:33

I get my Clay Time, I don't really care what, so get done.

Zoe Greenhalf: 27:36

What do you like to do in Clay Time? I love that Clay Time.

Clay Lowe: 27:41

Reading, mostly Reading, writing, thinking is my three things Primarily reading, but then reading also sparks the thinking and the thinking sparks the writing. So it's a combination of those three things. That's all that I do.

Zoe Greenhalf: 27:58

Are you religious about that time? Is it literally ingrained in you that every day Saturday, sunday, holidays.

Clay Lowe: 28:07

I'll have a lie-in on a weekend and stay in bed till 6 as opposed to 5am. So yeah, that's a seven day a week ritual. It's not even one that, like, i don't have to force, but it's just a thing. It's just you know, you just get up and make my coffee.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:27

I'd like it to be a ritual for me, but I still I'm struggling to get out of bed. But that's what I'm aiming for.

Clay Lowe: 28:35

We've got to find your time, though, you know, It's like I know that people say how are the 5am club? But if that's not your time of day, then you're going to be useless anyway.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:44

So when I'm always saying to people it actually doesn't have to be 5am, it doesn't have to be 6am, it doesn't even have to be 7.

Clay Lowe: 28:50

It could be 3am.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:51

Yeah, yeah, when you get in from clubbing or when you're out, yeah, when you're up feeding little kids and stuff. So I used to just try and fit in journaling and it used to be great on me when people would say you need to get up at sort of 5 or 6 and do these things before your day starts and I'd be like, but I've been up half the night feeling a small baby, like just the idea of going to sleep for an hour to get up again and start journaling it just doesn't work for me.

Clay Lowe: 29:21

I'm a proponent of journal whenever write whenever So yeah, I do that.

Clay Lowe: 29:27

Yeah. So I think you inhibit yourself if you make that kind of thing a ritual. So I'll write if I'm standing in line and I've got 5 minutes. That's 5 minutes to write down some notes. So someone on Twitter was asking they did a little piece on journaling and about doing it in a physical journal or on electronic diary. And I used to be a massive fan of the physical journal and I still keep my little thing here, but I don't really journal there as much. I got an attic full of old ones of these, but these days I'm primarily a digital journal and a lot of that is any device I have in my hand.

Clay Lowe: 30:09

I can go to my diary and start working on And I also like the metadata that you get. So it'll note time of day, the weather, all that sort of stuff that I don't have to think about it. It's kind of there And then I can add any pictures or any like things like that that are around And it's just so. I can do it on my phone, my iPad computer, someone else's computer, so it's like always there. So if I got a moment I can write kind of a couple of sentences in my diary. Stroke journal, stroke notebook is all interrelated for me.

Zoe Greenhalf: 30:45

Yeah, i always try. I mean, i aim for the mornings, but if I don't get there I don't beat myself up about it. It's not like I stick to one of these 5am schedules.

Clay Lowe: 30:56

Yeah, my best writing is in the morning. I'm probably at my most creative is early morning Because there's nothing on my mind. Part of my brain is not still digesting some work problems, So I'm just fresh. It's just that my best time of the day is is that early morning? peace?

Zoe Greenhalf: 31:16

You do seem to have this kind of in real enthusiasm and love for, for embracing even the small things in life. Do you feel happy with the choices, do you think, that you've made since leaving the army and and moving to the UK via the corporate world?

Clay Lowe: 31:34

I'm happy. So, in true philosopher's style, you're going to have to say happy now, aren't you?

Clay Lowe: 31:40

Yeah, happy. What is happy? Yeah, i mean, i'm a. Yeah, i mean, the choices that you make are the choices that you kind of make, aren't they? And they, all of them go to making you the person that you kind of are. So, whatever that choice is, whether some choices have been good, some have been bad, but I wouldn't be the same person talking to you right now without the choices that I've already made. So it's um, yeah, so you know, some, some choices sucked.

Zoe Greenhalf: 32:14

Like what?

Clay Lowe: 32:14

Wow? Um, i tell you a, here's one that was a good, it had a good story at the end of it At West Point. um, so for your university it's like your Sandhurst. but I was supposed to graduate in 1991, but I ended up getting suspended for a year and I'll have to link to another podcast if people want to know the story of why I got suspended for a year. Um, but yeah, i got suspended for a year, which is a, you know, which is a big deal, because normally you get kicked out, but there was some grace things that happened and just got suspended for a year. Now, had I not got suspended, i would have not met my current president, like I say current, like I had more than one. I would have not met my wife because she didn't come to West Point until 92 and I would have been gone. and so, you know, a bad thing happened, but out of that bad thing, a good thing happened. So you know, so my whole life would have been a different life without that bad choice. Yeah, and in fact you said about the small things, it was an actual small choice that I made that led to being suspended, and it was. and when people hear this. so, um, at West Point you're not, you weren't allowed to have a car until you were a senior. and I had the car as a junior, just before my senior year. And in long story short and we'll find a link to it you can hear the longer version, but the short version is um, i got stopped and then I've got turned in for honor violation and then from that is where I got suspended And the choice that I made was do I park my car before formation or after formation?

Clay Lowe: 34:03

That tiny little choice had major consequences. You know there's um Dan Millman and he has a book called No Ordinary Moments, that there are no ordinary moments. So every moment of your life is an extraordinary moment And so You should be present for it. And even the smallest decisions that we make, if you add them all up, they have a big. you know, just to go outside today and decide to go left instead of going right has a big, massive thing.

Clay Lowe: 34:40

But you don't have to necessarily get to know what that is. Sometimes you do like when I've just done this, and this is a kind of because another worthy thought experiment to do just to go back and think about all the little decisions that you made and whether they're there. So for me, deciding, you know, do I go part my car before formation, after formation, led to a whole bunch of things. And if I trace that back to current girl that I was with at the time, i only met her because it was do I check my mail before lunch or after lunch. I decided to check it before lunch. You have to be in the mailroom and otherwise probably never met her, and then that wouldn't be. the whole chain of events wouldn't happen.

Clay Lowe: 35:21

But there's just tiny little decisions and you always kind of think you know what? Yeah, what happens if I had a gone right instead of gone left? I mean, in the end you wouldn't be who you are, or I wouldn't be who I am right now, what making the decision that I made. But it's just fascinating to kind of think who would clay be if I had parked after formation? Who would that version of clay be? So I would really love to do, to be able to do like the time travel thing or to be able to look at the parallel universes. You know, i'd be fascinated just to see how that timeline would play itself out. I mean, i can see all the things that wouldn't happen if I, if that didn't happen. But yeah, so I think it was.

Zoe Greenhalf: 36:05

Yeah, I remember a moment where the company that I was working for here in Italy when I first moved here, they were about to go under and they said to me OK, you can. You can go back to the UK and work your last couple of months from there, if you want.

Clay Lowe: 36:21

And.

Zoe Greenhalf: 36:21

I remember thinking but but like you know, i wanted to come here for a year or or a year or two. I can't go back now, it's like it's too soon. And so I decided I was going to try and figure out how to stay, and I had no idea really how to make it work. But that was kind of a defining moment because then that set the kind of trajectory for the next 13 years, just in that decision of do I stay or do I go. And now I have a partner, i have two children and I've amassed all these different life experiences of the last 13 years with no way of knowing what would have happened if I'd have just taken their suggestion and gone. OK, then I'll just get back in my car and drive back across the channel and pick up life where I left it, you know, nine months before. And for me that's kind of like a similar experience where sometimes I just think you know what would have happened or where would I have been. It's interesting, isn't it?

Clay Lowe: 37:29

I mean, it is those little things, isn't it? And we think that everything is like these big, monumental decisions, but it's the tiny ones that have huge consequences, huge impact, and this made me think now of Nietzsche's eternal reoccurrence, and he says that one of it is about, you know, being your being the best version of you always, because if time is infinite, then it probability would state that this moment will happen again, because it just it should happen again, and so you're going to always be living this very moment for the rest of eternity. So if you want your life to be, you know, the best that it could be, you know, so always be working to be the best version of yourself, because you'll be living that same moment for eternity.

Zoe Greenhalf: 38:29

Well, that's deep.

Clay Lowe: 38:29

It's crazy, isn't it? So imagine that We'll be doing this podcast for eternity. You know what I mean. Well, i think you've got a lot to talk about, so that's fine.

Zoe Greenhalf: 38:42

I was going to ask you, though how do you feel about being the other side of midlife? How does that land with you?

Clay Lowe: 38:51

Because a lot of my On the sliding into death now.

Zoe Greenhalf: 38:55

You said that to me. Okay, i was trying to be all positive and upbeat about it. But one of the topics that keeps coming up in this podcast is this feeling of you know, you get to a certain age and it's too late to do certain things. And yeah, i keep meeting people who feel exactly the opposite. You know, i myself feel like since turning 40, things have got better, not worse. I've gained a few extra wrinkles, but you know that's just normal. I don't lose any sleep over it, and I think with age comes more experience and a kind of feeling of more I don't know, just kind of feel more content with who you are. You know yourself a bit better, but from a sort of you know, a philosophy level, how do you view that kind of point in your life?

Clay Lowe: 39:50

Yeah, so the whole, you know, knowing that I've got less days ahead than I have behind me, kind of thing, as you're you know, and it's just the fact of life, isn't it? I haven't discovered the fountain of youth, so you know it's coming. Yeah, if I do the whole, the average age of a UK male anyone is like 82 or something. So that gives me like 30 years left, which is nothing, isn't it? You know, don't have a sort of a fear of death. I'm curious to know what's on the other side, if there's anything, and would that change things? if I knew So people listening, if you knew that there was life after death, how would that change your life?

Clay Lowe: 40:36

And if you knew, with certainty, 100%, no doubt, that this is it, this is the one life that you have. There's nothing else, there's no reincarnation. You ain't coming back. There's no heaven, no hell. This is it, you know.

Clay Lowe: 40:50

How does that change your frame of reference in terms of what do you want to do with your life? Because it's your life and you only have this one shot at it. Yeah, what do you want to sort of do with it? And I think you know, yeah, it's never too late to do anything that you want to do. It's hard.

Clay Lowe: 41:09

I'm almost saying that it's easy because that's the thing, is it? it can? it sounds easy to do. You know, just do your thing. Or you know it's your life and live it. But it's a it's, it's a. There's a momentum that happens and it's kind of hard to break out of the that momentum. I was remember reading the story about There's a weather pattern off of South America or the ocean pattern of it and Ships coming through it if they don't get the right angle and they can get stuck in it and just keeps them in it. And and I think life is alike like we want to make a change. It's hard to change because you can't. It'd be nice if you could stop time. Yeah, everything's, just stop moving.

Zoe Greenhalf: 41:54

Why I?

Clay Lowe: 41:55

figure everything out and then I'll start time again. But you know, life has its own momentum and it's still going, and you still have, and then you're trying to make a change, but you still got to do it what you've already said in motion, and so it's. I wouldn't say that it's an easy thing, and But it's not an impossible thing and you just kind of have to work through it. So the thing, whatever it is that you want to do then in this sort of chase, it and The other problem I think that we have as humans is that we just and maybe it's just a self preservation thing, mental well-being, health thing, but we always just Assuming that we're gonna live forever.

Clay Lowe: 42:31

You never. You think that I'm gonna die. We could die by the end of this podcast, both of us, you know, and there's been stuff that, and it's plain, crashing to the building. Or I had a friend, one of my friends, and at West Point, you know, he was driving across a bridge and the bridge collapsed. Yeah, i'm dead, you know, he was just on his way home And you see what we have a tendency to think at life is long and I'm gonna be around. For him, death is way off somewhere else, and so we. It's easy to put things off, but I think if you Realize that any moment you could go, that so anything that you're putting off or stalling from or wait into the conditions are right, then you're just assuming that you have that time. So why not make use of the time that you know that you have, which is, you know, the now time? and There's a sort of some arrived warriors, and they had this thing about Bushido, and part of that was about Live your life as if you're already dead. So you're already dead, and So everything that you do, you should do with passion and purpose and intention, and and Don't assume that you've got another day.

Clay Lowe: 43:49

I remember when they had the 9-11. I was reading these stories that come out and there was one lady who was like The thing that came to her mind was the fact that she had already put on that day. She's just put her makeup on already and she was going off to work. So she didn't kiss her husband because she'd already put her makeup on and she's regretting that Moment of good getting the assumption was just a normal day, boom go. But she never got that chance again and some of the concept on a bushy though. So, yeah, kiss your wife or your husband or brother like is the last time you're ever going to kiss them again, because it just might be And so do everything with that intensity of That. It's your last time that you might be doing this thing.

Clay Lowe: 44:39

So, yeah, the whole sort of I'm curious to know what's on the other. I want to know, like I want to be, i Kind of want to die instantly. I want to know my last thought I do think about you see, i think it, i want to. What's gonna be my last thought before Dying? am I gonna be like damn, or is it? you know, what is it gonna be? I want to know what my my fire one. I want to be able to have a final thought as I get ready to.

Clay Lowe: 45:07

Die just to think I yeah, it's been good, it's been fun, or damn, i want more time. What do you think it would be? Oh, i don't know.

Clay Lowe: 45:16

This is it, i'm, i'm, i am, i Hope this it would be. You know, yes, it was cool, it was a fun ride And now it's over. But, yeah, just that experience. You know what's that? What's the what's it like? that last breath, i think, is Curious to me, that I think is gonna be interesting. And then, well, i wake up and then on the other side is like, oh yeah, or is that just gonna be it? man Is this all we is this it. What do you think? is this the only life we have?

Zoe Greenhalf: 45:51

I just don't know, i Just don't know I don't know what I? just I don't know what to think.

Clay Lowe: 45:57

Hmm.

Zoe Greenhalf: 45:58

I don't know, but, but I definitely want to go out feeling as though. You know, it's been a wild ride and I've done all the things I wanted to do, and And if I hadn't achieved them, i've at least tried. Hmm you know I don't want to be sat there thinking wishing that I'd had the guts to do something and then Bottled it and not done it, You know. no, I don't think anybody wants to go out that way, But that's what I worry about.

Zoe Greenhalf: 46:23

Sometimes. I think, like you said, we're so, we're so used to this idea that we've got time, but it's a fine balance though. I find it's a fine balance between Not trying to put all this pressure on yourself to get things done in a in a really, really impossible window of time, but also Not just presuming that you've got infinite time because you haven't and you I think you've got a some point kind of try and find that balance.

Clay Lowe: 46:48

And sometimes I think, well, what's, isn't it just enough just to live? why do we need to be I mean, it's a very Western society thing about You know gotta be productive and you gotta be always doing something and always achieving something and always, you know, striving for the next sort of level or something. but again, why? To what aim and to what point? and you know, is it not enough Just to know be to live, whatever, just be happy that you're breathing? Isn't that enough?

Zoe Greenhalf: 47:21

Why do we have to Have goals and achieve this and achieve that and Can you answer your own question, or is that another one that keeps you your mind active?

Clay Lowe: 47:32

Well, yeah, it's the one that I answer often and And yeah, i come up with different versions of that answer And quite often as well, like, i think again, i think from a success point of view, totally, you gotta throw out everybody else's definition of whatever that is and you're gonna make your own. If you are happy, yeah, doing whatever it is that you're?

Clay Lowe: 47:55

doing, then Just do that thing, don't feel the pressure that you need to be doing something else or you need to be keeping up with the Joneses a whole sort of status anxiety thing. Like you know, do you have to be? you know, yeah, you have to keep up with the Joneses or otherwise you're seen as a failure in life and you're not successful and And so, yeah, you know, and so, yeah, you, yeah, yeah. And then that makes you miserable because you feel like you failed or because you, so, as soon as you get into that space, you, you just start losing it.

Clay Lowe: 48:35

Then that that sort of comparison, and And so the journey is what is life means? and I'm a big existentialist. We were having this conversation last night at dinner about what people's different philosophy is. Number huge existentialist and and the reason it resonates with me is, you know, they're one of their tenants or belief structures is that life is ultimately Meaningless, there is no purpose in life, there is no meaning to life, that life is Ultimately just absurd, meaningless, and people have stopped there and think I asked a very negative, but They don't continue.

Clay Lowe: 49:19

The story and the rest of the story is Accepting that fact. Now you are free and you have the responsibility is all on you to create meaning for yourself. So you decide what your life is going to mean, you decide what your purpose is And instead of waiting for someone else to tell you what it is or any of that kind of stuff, so you have the ultimate power, responsibility, to Give meaning to life for yourself, and I think that's just so empowering to me, and for me It's like okay, yeah, i can make my own meaning, which means I don't have to buy into other people's meanings. Which means I don't have to buy into other people's definitions of success. Which also means that you know people can believe whatever they want to believe, because for me, ultimately, all the beliefs, they're all wrong anyway, all of them, every single one, even my one saying that the belief, that belief, is wrong. I mean, it's just so. Yeah, believe whatever you want to believe, and Because it doesn't really matter in the end anyway, I love that.

Zoe Greenhalf: 50:23

I feel like That's such a poignant way to finish as well.

Clay Lowe: 50:27

Are you kicking me off? Yeah, thanks.

Zoe Greenhalf: 50:30

Yeah, because I feel like that, then, is that question is just gonna hang in the air for people and leave them reflecting a little bit on On what meaning they're giving to their lives is essentially. Absolutely that is my wish for everybody that they can then define their own Meaning and go find it. Where can people find out more about you, Clay, and listen to your?

Clay Lowe: 50:56

Twitter, at SoulCruiser In fact, any social media. You can find me at SoulCruzer S-O-U-L-C-R-U-Z-E-R. Soulcruzer. So I'm SoulCruzer on Instagram, twitter. I do have a Facebook page, the coaches notes. I have a sub stack, the coaches notes podcast. I've got so many podcasts, but my main ones are I have the coaches notes podcast. If you're into personal development stuff, that mostly goes there. Then I have a SoulCruiser podcast which is yeah, it's a slice of life podcast, and then I got various other ones like the wisdom experience and digital calm. So there's a lot of podcasts and stuff

Clay Lowe: 51:44

Float to my opinion.

Zoe Greenhalf: 51:45

Oh Clay thank you so much for coming today and sharing your thoughts and wisdom. It's been amazing.

Clay Lowe: 51:51

So think about this, And you don't have to, you can edit this bit out. but we talked about the breadcrumbs bit.

Zoe Greenhalf: 51:58

Mm-hmm.

Clay Lowe: 52:01

And at some point, when were you born?

Zoe Greenhalf: 52:02

1981.

Clay Lowe: 52:04

81. I was born in 1968. So our lives have been moving to end up at this point, at this time. Think about that. We didn't know each other existed. I've been kicking around for however many 10, 12 years, before you were even alive, and then, up until a few weeks ago, i didn't even know you existed, did I? We didn't know each other existed, but our lives have been propelling us to this point, this time And now. That's always amazing to me. You know, do you know that? And it just became because you knew a person who knew that I did this, and then we ended up connecting And I always think so. Is it that I, that you have a message for me from the universe, or do I have a message for you? So I always think, in any interaction like this, somebody's a messenger, someone's the receiver, so what, and I don't always know who's who, and then sometimes there's a mutual aspect. But I was. So I'll go and think about what. Why did the universe bring us together?

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:20

I have that thought, sometimes actually about people. I do have that thought.

Clay Lowe: 53:23

Yeah, and they come in and out, don't they?

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:25

It's like okay, Yeah.

Clay Lowe: 53:27

But hopefully you stick around and we can do some other great sort of things and collaborate on some stuff.

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:32

Absolutely. Definitely.

Clay Lowe: 53:36

And then you can do the mischief movement thing and then you know if you're if you're because you're building that community. So you know, let's get a bunch more like-minded people around and make some noise in the world.

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:50

That was brilliant, thank you.

Clay Lowe: 53:52

Thank you.

Zoe Greenhalf: 53:54

I hope you loved today's episode and it made you think differently, or perhaps nudged you into changing something in your life that's not working for you. I'd love to give you a shout out right here on the podcast too, so let me know what you think, what you'd like to hear more of, or how you've been inspired by what you've heard. Let's keep in touch over on Instagram at mischiefandhide, or sign up to my newsletter at zoegreenhavcom. If you're enjoying being part of the mischief movement, please consider telling a friend or leaving me a review wherever you download your episodes, which will seriously help my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose mischief over mediocre. Ciao.