Embracing a Mischievous and Authentic Life with Max McMurdo: Challenging the Status Quo and Accessible Design

What happens when a mischievous TV star, author, and designer maker decides to challenge the status quo and live an authentic life? I'm  excited to share my conversation with Max McMurdo as we explore his journey from finding his true self to his amazing outdoor life, living in a floating shipping container. His insights serve as a reminder to stay true to ourselves, embrace mischievousness, and rebel against the ordinary.

Max shares his creative approach to problem-solving, his view of himself as a 'jack of all trades,' and how important it is to consider the perspective of his 15-year-old self when creating something. We dive into the power of lateral thinking and discuss how it can lead to living a better life. From rugby to campervanning, Max's experiences and passions prove that there's no need to limit ourselves to conventional norms.

Lastly, we discuss the importance of accessibility in various aspects of life, such as Max's work building classrooms in Kenya and how he's making campervanning accessible to all. Join us for an inspiring and playful conversation that's sure to spark your curiosity and leave you feeling motivated to shake things up in your own life.

Find out more about Max here; https://www.maxmcmurdo.co.uk/
and here; https://www.outlandishcampers.com/

Or follow on Instagram @maxreestore

Chapters

• 3:11 Designing a Mischievous Life
• 13:14 Design, Empathy, and Mischievousness
• 17:58 Vulnerability, and Taking Risks
• 31:27 Living a Fulfilling and Fun Life
• 44:09 Accessibility in Various Aspects of Life
• 52:04 Outdoor fun and Camper vans
• 1:03:44 Living Mischievously and Inspiring Rebellion

Transcript

Max McMurdo: 0:00

So I remember phoning my agent saying oh Debbie, I think I might be in trouble. I'm kind of being escorted by police with Professor Green the rapper And I think I might need bailing out or something. And she went. I imagine he's got this sorted Like. He's a bit more gangster than you. Max, Keep your card in your mind, Things will be fine.

Zoe Greenhalf: 0:18

Hello, it's Zoe And welcome, or welcome back to the Mischief Movement podcast, your weekly inspo for people looking for more hell yeah in their life. Consider this your one way ticket out of mid-life mediocracy towards fun and positive impact via playful disruption. Wouldn't you love to wake up and feel like a total badass? How about breaking some rules, throwing two fingers up to society and doing more of the things you love? I'm talking full on freedom, adventure and those meaningful connections I know you've been craving. Stop waiting for your amazing life to happen and go get it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 0:55

I'll be picking the brains of some true game changers and Mischief Makers so I can share what I find and hopefully inspire you to shake things up, do more of what makes you feel alive and boldly rebel against the ordinary. I've no idea what I'm doing, to be honest, but I've got a mission and I'm here to start a movement. It's gonna be quite the adventure. Care to join me? Okay, here goes. Listen up, mischief Makers.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:22

I've found us a new mentor and he goes by the name of Max McMurdo. You'll have seen him getting into all sorts of design and upcycling challenges across various TV shows, including George Clark's Amazing Spaces, Find it, fix it, flog it, and even appearing on Dragon's Den, but in this episode we barely touch on the TV stuff or even the books he's published. I wanted to get to know the real Max, what lights him up, how he navigates being on screen and off, living in a floating shipping container, and how he's rebelling against the ordinary by being his authentic self, creating a lifestyle that feels good and using his creativity to give back. There was so much more I wanted to talk about, but for now we'll have to make do with a 60 minute snapshot, which I am thrilled to be able to share with you right now. Well, i am super excited, as I always say, but this time also very nervous, to introduce Max McMurdo to the Mischief Movement podcast this week. Fabulous have you.

Max McMurdo: 2:28

Thank you very much. I don't know why you're nervous. You shouldn't be nervous. You're the owner of the mischievousness!

Zoe Greenhalf: 2:38

If anybody doesn't know, max has a blue tick the official blue tick on Instagram and that is causing me a world of nerves.

Max McMurdo: 2:48

I guess I should be more nervous, though, because I don't know what you're going to ask me We've never met.

Zoe Greenhalf: 2:52

That's true, that's very true. I haven't briefed you at all have I?

Max McMurdo: 2:56

That's the best way, though. Let's just go for it. Let's have a creative, mischievous discussion.

Zoe Greenhalf: 3:01

It sounds brilliant. So I guess my first question is what is your mischief? Because you've got your hands in so many different pies.

Max McMurdo: 3:09

That's a good question. What is my mischief? I think my life is quite mischievous actually, and I guess the role of a designer is probably to be mischievous and to ask questions constantly. I think I've always done it. I'm very fortunate. I've never had a career change. I've never had a moment of midlife crisis where I've had to rejig and retrain. I've always just enjoyed being creative and doing things differently and asking what if we did it differently?

Max McMurdo: 3:38

So one of my favorite situations is particularly on a building site or a site full of traditional trades people where they say we've always done it that way, mate, like what? No, that's a very good reason to change the way we're doing it. So, for example, i live in a floating shipping container, which sounds bizarre, but actually that was me being mischievous and asking should we live in bricks and mortar? Do we need to live on land? Am I enjoying the place where my cottage is located? Do I want to live in this exact house in this exact location, or actually do I want something mobile and portable? And I think this is a very fortunate time to grow up in as well, where we can be mischievous, we can think differently, we can challenge the status quo. So, in short, which wasn't a very short answer, in reality, i guess my entire life and my career is just based around being mischievous.

Zoe Greenhalf: 4:37

Which makes you the most perfect guest for this podcast, because, as you're telling me this thing, my face is just lighting up, because I think our ability to be able to think differently is ultimately what's going to lead us towards living a better life. If we just sit there and accept everything as read, we lose that kind of sense of curiosity, and it feels like you have curiosity in abundance.

Max McMurdo: 5:05

I think that's possibly my only skill. Someone asked me the other day what my title was, what my job was, and I said oh, i'm not entirely sure. I'm not a woodworker or a metalworker or a fabricator of any particular material. I just like asking questions, being a little bit provocative at times and seeing if there's another solution to the norm. So I don't work in any one material. I'm not even just a designer, really. I'm not a product designer or interior designer or stylist. I'm a complete jack of all trades. But recently I learned that the phrase jack of all trades used to be initially was a very positive phrase. It's like a second part of that phrase that goes on to say and suggest I think it was Shakespeare even that it's good to be a jack of all trades and to experiment and sample lots of different techniques and materials and stuff.

Zoe Greenhalf: 5:57

Hey, I'm just jumping in as I'm editing this, because I'm also a huge fan of this saying. I only discovered the second part of the phrase about two years ago, and it was a game changer, right. It goes like this "a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one Making out of it. Keep us somewhere safe. Being a jack of all trades is an amazing thing to be. Anyway, on with the episode.

Max McMurdo: 6:28

I'm fully aware I'm not the best woodworker or metalworker or fabricator, but I do love being provocative and asking if there's a better way of doing things and that's kind of the main objective. And I guess the other objective I've got is I always envisage whether it's a TV show or a YouTube video or a little video or photographs or a design that I'm coming up with. I always imagined 15 year old me, because I was a bit mischievous at school. To be honest, i wasn't academic in the slightest. I got quite bored with academia because for me old school academia was do you have a good memory? Can you remember this long enough to recite it in an exam? A star well done.

Max McMurdo: 7:10

For me that isn't intelligence or the ability to be a good human or a happy human, that is just testing one small factor which now is null and void, because actually memory is all on a computer. Memory is on our phones. Memory is one of the simplest things to accomplish now. Problem solving, lateral thinking that's for me, that's what an exciting person is.

Max McMurdo: 7:35

But when I was 15, couldn't relate to the school system, wasn't academic and therefore wasn't seen as valuable, didn't feel self-worth, didn't necessarily feel like I was a success because I couldn't remember these multiplications and equations like my teachers wanted me to. So I now, when I'm filming a show, always think 15 year old me is sat there disinterested, doesn't feel worthy, doesn't feel valued at school with the traditional school system. Can I get that person excited by engineering or thinking differently, or design or one of those subject matters? So when we're filming these shows I just think is there a 15 year old lad sat there feeling inspired by what I'm doing? If not, why not? What can I do to make that exciting for that person to engage in, maybe feel that they have a career, they have a future, they have something that they can get their teeth into and enjoy as an adult?

Zoe Greenhalf: 8:31

I love that and it's interesting, isn't it? how, you know, you describe your 15 year old self as not feeling worthy, and it's so hard going through a school system when your skills are not quite what they want them to be and what they expect them to be. I also consider myself to be a designer maker, and I know that when I left school, the view was very much like well, if you're a creative, you're probably not going to do that. Well, you're probably going to struggle to make money. So there was always this kind of view of, well, it's great. My parents were completely encouraging, i might just add. They never stopped me. I went into a degree in footwear design and I did enjoy it, but I do remember being this kind of societal expectation of, well, it will be harder for you because you're creative, not wow, you've got something extra about you. It's almost like, well, you're not going to go into marketing, you're not going to go into this, you're not going to probably make any money but it's great that you found something that you're really passionate about.

Zoe Greenhalf: 9:38

Well done, you know.

Max McMurdo: 9:40

Yeah. Or the other thing is oh, that'll be a lovely hobby. If you want to make artistic furniture out of rubbish, that'll be lovely. Do that in the evenings and weekends and go and become an accountant during the day to pay the bills because you must have a mortgage. Well, i haven't got a mortgage because I've deliberately built my own house out of a shipping container, so I don't have that. So the other thing I've realised is design your lifestyle to do the job you want to do. Don't do a job straight after school and then realise oh wow, now I only have 7pm till 9pm to enjoy my actual life, and then weekends.

Zoe Greenhalf: 10:12

Oh, i love that. design your lifestyle, yes, yeah, design it the other way around so I deliberately don't have them all be.

Max McMurdo: 10:19

Yeah, and that's the role of designers. So I do, going back to my 15 year old self, i do. I'd like to make a thank you actually, if you don't mind, i'm going to hijack your podcast to thank my design teacher, mr John Bonson because he saw that that value in 15 year old me.

Max McMurdo: 10:34

Many of the other teachers just dismissed me and disregarded me, i suppose, and rightly so. I was quite disruptive and annoying. So I think that is what designers are here for. I feel a huge, not pressure. I think it's up to designers to change the world and that sounds like an overstatement, but a lot of people go to work and they just fulfill their role. They do as they're asked to do. They don't need to change the status quo. But designers are there to question everything. Is it the right material, the right aesthetic, the right, the right solution to the problem? is the problem even there? so I nearly got arrested once. And that nearly. I didn't get arrested. Don't worry, there's a good end to the story

Zoe Greenhalf: 11:16

it doesn't matter.

Max McMurdo: 11:19

yes, so Professor Green posted on Instagram that Bournemouth Council had put bars metal bars on the middle of their benches in Bournemouth and.

Max McMurdo: 11:28

I went to university in Bournemouth and very proud of being from Bournemouth in some respects and this was claimed to be to help old people get up and down off the benches. But lately it was to stop homeless people seeking refuge and raising their body temperature by about two degrees by staying off the cold, wet floor at night, and I thought that's really not okay. That's terrible. I agree, homelessness isn't pretty to look at, but that's that's a good thing to feel, because then we should maybe solve the root cause of the problems and give these people support where they need it, not prevent them sleeping on a bench because it's ugly.

Max McMurdo: 12:04

So I message Professor Green, as you do, because you can message anyone these days, not expecting him to get back to me obviously his real name is Stephen, not Professor Green and said hey, i've got an idea. Why don't we make a different kind of metal structure that doubles up as a support, which could create the support for a canopy? could we potentially swap all of their metal bars for our own metal bars that I've designed, which would fit as an armrest during the day, but then you could flip it around to create this support of an evening we could hand out to our poorlands and then we could use that as an asset to help homeless people get some shelter at night time. He went yes, mate, let's go tomorrow.

Max McMurdo: 12:44

I went oh okay, that was unexpected wow so that night I had to go out into Bedford and apologies, bedford Council, i did drill two holes, four holes actually, in one of your benches I just can't tell you where, you'll never see it anyway. I drilled four holes to replicate the the bar that Bournemouth had fitted. I then got myself a piece of aluminium and created a wonderful curve, and then the following day I went via a diy store, bought loads of strips of aluminium and then Professor Green and I met in Bournemouth. It's quite funny actually. I was in my rickety old work van. He was in his like g-wagon, cruising with all his, his entourage. I didn't really know much about his music, so I was listening to his album on the way down as well, being really cool, dancing around to pro greens greatest hits and then met him. What a wonderful, wonderful, beautiful human. We then went around Bournemouth taking off their their bars with nuts and bolts. So there was no, we didn't destroy anything and I kept all the old ones. I then fitted my bars and then we handed out 25 tarpaulins to homeless people and rough sleepers and the police turned up and they took as well. We weren't even arrested. We were taken to the royal bath hotel for a latte. I imagine that latte was paid for by the taxpayer, which is terrible. So like the most posh experience of my life.

Max McMurdo: 14:02

Um, but the series bit behind it was they actually apologized and said you know what, you've done the right thing. So I remember phoning my agent saying oh, debbie, i think I might be in trouble. I'm kind of being escorted by police with Professor Green the rapper and I think I might need bailing out or something. And she went. I imagine he's got this sorted, like he's. He's a bit more gangster than you, max, keep the card in your mind, things will be fine. So they apologized. They apologized, said we've clearly made the wrong decision. The counselor at fault here.

Max McMurdo: 14:31

They then the following day removed all of the bars off the benches. They didn't keep my, my hoops, unfortunately, but the, the rough sleepers got tarpaulins, which has helped them. And, um, i realized at that time wow, design is really really important and life changing, and I'm not telling everybody to go out there and be anarchists by any stretch. I think there's a way of doing things, but I think it is our responsibility to question design and say you've got that wrong, mate, that that's a really bad thing to make that bar. They spent £3,600 on doing this as well. Actually, imagine three and a half grand spent on mental health and allowing these people a bank account because they have no fixed address, or giving them the haircuts, or I think of all the positive things you can do with £3,600, rather than the bars and the benches, to encourage people to get off the streets and to rehabilitate and, to you know, get their mental health back on track. So that's up to designers. Well, that was a rant wasn't it, but yeah designers.

Max McMurdo: 15:30

We need more provocative, mischievous designers, please. Education system I think that was.

Zoe Greenhalf: 15:35

That is a fabulous story, because it's just such a great example of what I feel when I think about this podcast, this idea that you know we're doing stuff that lights us up. You're there in the thick of kind of designing, building, problem solving which are the things that you enjoy but also creating a positive impact while we do it. You know, i often say calling this the mischief movement is not about creating a bunch of anarchists that are going to go around and terrorize people. It's actually turning things on its head, flipping the ideas, exactly what you just said thinking about things differently, approaching situations and life with a different perspective, because that way we're going to come up with more innovative, more exciting solutions. And I think a big part of what you just said also revolves around having that empathy as well. I think that's such a another undervalued skill that not everybody has, but when you have it, you know, let's use it.

Max McMurdo: 16:36

I think actually that's funny. You say that I think in the creative sector, a lot of people the majority of people I meet are empaths. They are. They sometimes struggle with their mental health. A lot of them have ADHD and dyslexia and quite complex personalities, but I think being an empath and sensitive to people's requirements and needs and feelings is really important as a designer, and it's quite funny actually that when I started doing this, say 20 years ago now, i was just a designer doing things a bit differently, but now a lot of it is associated with sustainability, mental health, vulnerability, all of those things, and we should, we should actually get back to vulnerability. Can I put that on the little list of things to revisit, please? but but only in fact this weekend coming. No, the following weekend in 10 days time, i've been invited to an event called the rebel. I can't remember what it's called, something about rebels, because they see me as being rebellious.

Zoe Greenhalf: 17:36

I love it already. I don't know what it's about, but it sounds brilliant.

Max McMurdo: 17:40

I'm not entirely sure The rebellious festival, let's call it, but I hadn't really seen and recognized that I am rebellious and mischievous. They weren't phrases that I associated with myself in the past. I guess I am, though It was just I'm a designer who does things a bit differently. But now I'm realizing maybe it is all about being mischievous and rebellious and not doing things the normal way. Again, i tend to do everything. I'm quite sensible, sometimes not often But my workshop's really well organized And I think certain areas of my life I love a list, for example.

Max McMurdo: 18:15

So I'm not harem scarrem, disorganized mayhem It's, and I guess because my work is so creative and rebellious and mischievous, possibly my tools all need to be in order and cleaned. I need. I remember once I tried to go home from a shoot and somebody had lost my 13 mil socket at my socket set, which is like the commonly lost one because it's half inch, and I couldn't drive past howlfords without going in and replacing it, knowing full well it would turn up the following day. But I felt a bit anxious knowing that that was missing, because I have to have everything in order to be mischievous.

Zoe Greenhalf: 18:51

Hey.

Max McMurdo: 18:52

I've only just realized that maybe I need so much more security in other parts of my life to enable my brain and my creativity to explore those wild places that aren't the norm Maybe that's it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 19:04

But you know, if I've helped you to think differently in asking you those questions, then I'm happy!

Max McMurdo: 19:11

So vulnerability, before I forget, that's something I've only just realized recently as well, i think. by the way, turning 40 for me was like amazing. At the age of 40, i realized now 45, which is I keep describing myself as young designer, max McMurdo oh, i need to change that a little bit, like the young bit needs to go, but in my head I'm 22 anyway.

Zoe Greenhalf: 19:31

but it's just a number

Max McMurdo: 19:34

But when you turn 40, you realize I don't really care what people think, i'm too old to get a proper job. You know that national record of achievement, that burgundy book.

Zoe Greenhalf: 19:42

You do have one of those as well. Yeah, I've got one of those.

Max McMurdo: 19:46

I've now realized that was nonsense. That was rubbish. My career's advisor wasn't particularly great. I didn't need to become an accountant and have a national record of achievement.

Zoe Greenhalf: 19:56

Can you remember what your career's advisor said to you? I just wondered if your career's advisor had any kind of interesting gems to dispense.

Max McMurdo: 20:04

I don't recall any gems, but I'm pretty certain they won't have said go and make furniture out of junk. That won't have been on the radar, that's for sure. But yeah, going back to vulnerability, i've realized recently that is being a designer is quite difficult. Actually, i find the design element quite easy and I'm now a lot more skilled because of experience of, i guess, what might work, what might not work, and I'm probably more efficient at designing than I used to be, because you can go through a lot of the process in your head. As you're being briefed, almost You can cut out all of the early parts of the design process the more experienced you become.

Max McMurdo: 20:45

But you've got to be very, very brave to be a designer, because I can't think of another sector where you, when somebody says, right, here's a challenge, go for it And then after that you've got to stand up and be really, really proud of something you've created and the whole world can criticize it. You've got to wear your heart on your sleeve and say, visually and aesthetically, this, I believe, is the best solution. From an engineering point of view, i believe this is the best solution And I hope you all like it. Heart on sleeve, i'm really vulnerable. Now Go attack me, give me all the negative feedback. You're experts in your individual fields. That takes some kind of bravery. And again, i'm past worrying what people think.

Max McMurdo: 21:27

Now I'm old and 90%, if not more, of my designs are nonsense. They do fail and it's okay to make mistakes. Another thing I wish I was taught at school. I'd like to see on the curriculum mistake lessons. And you go into it and you deliberately make loads of mistakes and get things wrong and learn from it and put things right And you evolve and you educate yourself through the art of mistake making.

Max McMurdo: 21:52

Because in maths, two plus two was always four And I never liked that. I don't like it when it's a finite thing I never make. In our new little business, our camper van business, we're never allowed to make finite statements. It's always what, if, or how about, or could we consider or, potentially, is this a solution? It's never the only way to do it, mate. Is that? No, there's always a million ways of doing it, some of which are expensive, some of which are complicated, some of which are risky. But let's say always explore them and it's okay if we go round the houses and come back to the first thought we had, which was obvious and a bit boring.

Max McMurdo: 22:29

It's okay to go back to that, but let's make sure we always explore all of the alternatives.

Zoe Greenhalf: 22:34

So how do you feel about taking risks then?

Max McMurdo: 22:37

I love risks. Risks are the dream. Risks are everything. So everything I do, i think, is a risk. If I'm not taking a risk, what am I doing? Why I would never do anything normal? No, that's a lie. I'm not anti-normal Sometimes. So here's something I learn I'm quite anti-plaster. So when you're in a house, you're doing some architecture, doing some architecture There's a lovely phrase You've designed something and you're trying to be different. And naturally I don't like skirting boards or plaster and plaster board. They just don't make sense in my head. Skirting boards are quite ugly. They never quite fit right.

Zoe Greenhalf: 23:15

Now I understand why you live in a shipping container. Now it's all beginning to make sense.

Max McMurdo: 23:22

However, i have now done a bit of plastering badly, i must add And it's really hard. When you get to the bottom of the wall, you naturally pick up a little bit of grit or dust or something. You then scrape it back up the wall through the fresh plaster. So that's why a plasterer leaves a little strip at the bottom unfinished. So that's a beautiful wall and then you cover it in skirting boards.

Max McMurdo: 23:45

So I'm not always anti. I'm not doing it differently for the sake of it. Sometimes I like to learn and explore and experiment and work alongside experts and ask why they're doing things the current way. If I feel it's, then there's still an opportunity to change the process and material than I do. But sometimes you go ah great, now I understand that I respect the process and the techniques involved and the limitations and therefore I accept that if you are adamant, you want to use plasterboard I don't think you should and therefore you have to plaster it. Then a skirting board is an appropriate method of construction. However, don't build bricks. Don't build brick houses in the first place. That's a nonsense. They're porous. They're not even as good as Lego building blocks, bricks They're stupid. But I've had several arguments with architects over.

Zoe Greenhalf: 24:37

Well, i'm not going to argue about your house choices, but I do want to ask you about living in your shipping container, because I can't imagine that creating a home like that was easy. But how did it come about?

Max McMurdo: 24:53

So, no, it was absolutely not easy. It was really hard. And do you know what? It's still not finished in places. but my projects never are. because now I want to add more solar, i want to rebuild the decking to incorporate a little hidden hop tub and some planters and stuff.

Max McMurdo: 25:05

But yeah, i was living in a cottage. so I bought a cottage that was really run down. It was all I could afford and I renovated it just in my spare time. And the estate agent came around and said, oh, it's worth about 50,000 pounds more than when you bought it. And I went, oh, wow, that's amazing. I didn't do it for that purpose. I thought, oh, i could probably build something quite cool with 50 grand, and then I don't have a mortgage anymore. That would be nice. So I considered it and I'd love to live by the seaside. I love water, i love surfing and paddleboarding. But I couldn't afford land, let alone property, by the sea. So I contacted my local marina and said how much is it for a spot at the marina? And then it's just a little monthly contribution, like you rent some mooring space. I thought, oh, that's quite affordable.

Max McMurdo: 25:46

So I sold my cottage, freed up 50K, bought a 40-foot shipping container for 2,000 pounds and thought this is a lovely space. There's only one of me, i don't need five bedrooms. If friends come to stay, there's a sofa bed. We shouldn't have spare bedrooms. Spare bedrooms are a daft concept. That means you've got too much space that a homeless person could be living in or somebody else should have that home. who got a bigger family? Could you downsize and have fewer bedrooms? But the houseboat?

Max McMurdo: 26:15

the idea was I wanted to reduce the number of spare bedrooms. I wanted to reduce storage solutions, because a lot of houses, if you move into a brand new build, it's 300,000 pounds. As soon as you put a wardrobe or a chest of drawers in it, the bedroom doesn't work anymore because the door hits it or it blocks out natural light and stuff. It's like architects have forgot that humans have clothing, that we're all just walking around naked or something. So I built all the storage into the floor. So in the lounge the dining table comes out the floor. In the kitchen, all of the white goods are hidden under the floor for doing laundry and sucks. That's ugly. In the bathroom, the bath is under the shower tray. to lift the shower tray out of the bath And in the bedroom. the bed comes up to reveal a walk-in wardrobe. There's no additional furniture getting in the way, because actually, when you look at the square footage of a house, by the time you fill it with furniture it's usually half as much as what you think you've got So here.

Max McMurdo: 27:10

I've only got 40 foot by 10 foot, but it's all usable space because there's no silly furniture.

Zoe Greenhalf: 27:15

That's amazing.

Max McMurdo: 27:17

And also very much open plan in terms of when you're cooking in a kitchen. So many of my friends have got like little galley kitchens So when they go and cook you're in the lounge or dining room on your own and you can't like communicate. So it's really nice here. It all opens up and I've got a wall of bifold glass doors so that when you're cooking a barbecue or something you can all have a conversation and a party and that sort of thing. So again, i've designed my house around the way I function. I got loads of cardboard boxes and wrote on them hog and fridge and stuff and laid it all around before anything went in. It was just an open shipping container and I just laid it all out and pretended to cook a meal and pretended to lounge and to go to bed and all of those things, so that I could understand how the space works for me, rather than a lot of these high volume house design developer companies who just bosh out the same old thing repeatedly without even considering.

Max McMurdo: 28:14

Have people's needs changed? Do we actually need an oven? Do we still need a meter wide oven anymore when we all use air fryers anyway, which, incidentally, are the worst named products in the world. I love an air fryer. It's energy saving, it's quicker, better food and it's brilliant. But it's not frying, is it? It's just a little oven. It's just a really good little oven.

Zoe Greenhalf: 28:42

It's series two and I'm excited to be back partnering with Plight Club, again, a brand whose mission is to change the attitude towards vulnerability and to encourage more conversation around it in order to increase real human connection. The vehicle for these conversations is clothing, or connection clothing as it's become known, and connection is one of our core values. So to bring more people together and help you rebel against staying the same, Plight Club are offering a cheeky 10% discount when you use the code MISCHIEF at the checkout. Sustainable, organic and rebellious, of course. Plight Club also uses 50% of their profits to fund proactive suicide prevention in the form of coaching, support and awareness raising, which enables people to understand their emotions and express how they feel constructively. Become a vulner-rebel with us. For more info on the brand or to buy online, go to Plightclub. co. uk or follow on Instagram at PlightClubHQ. Now on with the show.

Zoe Greenhalf: 29:48

What I love about you talking me through the design process is that, right from the word go, it was all about the problem solving. You strike me as such a curious problem solver, even to the point where you're like, right, well, i don't wanna live in a bricks and mortar to have water. the alternatives How do I do that? And just going back to what we were saying before. people we just kind of grow up in this society of but this is how it's done And it takes people like you and it takes people like the creative community to kind of step up and go.

Zoe Greenhalf: 30:30

but why is it like that? Why don't we put this here instead of there? Why don't we turn this on its head? and just finding out how the world works and just finding out how you have experimented in the creation of your house is just fascinating. I think it'd be such a cool place to go and visit. If you were to say, right, you can donate to my favorite homeless charity or whatever charity it would be, you can come and visit my house. I bet everybody would literally be throwing their money at you, because it's such an unusual place to go and visit and to be able to see basically what's going on in your head at the same time, cause you've actually laid things out as you've been thinking about them and designing it.

Max McMurdo: 31:19

That's not a bad idea, is it? I should do that. I should. Yeah, people could pay to come paddleboarding to the houseboat and experience it. I like that. I think they would.

Max McMurdo: 31:27

You said a really interesting thing then. You said about growing up, and I think that's one of the dangers of society is that we're expected to grow up And the idea of growing up is that you buy a suit, shiny shoes, a three series BMW, get a nine to five job that you don't particularly like, that it gives you these IOU tokens. Money's not even real, it's just a token that says IOU. And then we conform and we do what is expected of us and we stop asking questions Cause we've been driving around on a double decker bus. Recently. I converted a double decker bus into a workshop on wheels So I can get to people, cause I'm very lucky.

Max McMurdo: 32:06

I've now got my beautiful workshop. It's like Charlie and the chocolate factory. It's my little safe haven where I go and I experiment and I make silly contraptions, but not everybody has that. So I've converted a double decker bus into a workshop on wheels And we did it for a channel four show recently and we toured the country and we invite people to come on board and make things And a hundred percent of people, i would say, starts off quite nervous cause they're out of their comfort zone, because they're now adults who aren't supposed to be having fun playing and making things. But by the time they finished, after maybe an hour, they all come off and say I loved that, i used to really enjoy design and art at school, but then I just stopped doing it. Why, why do we stop doing the thing that we love?

Zoe Greenhalf: 32:52

Yeah, exactly.

Max McMurdo: 32:54

It's really sad, isn't it, that people have conformed. And I'm not saying I'm not an anarchist, i'm not somebody who's gluing myself to the road, i don't do those kinds of things, but I'm trying to be provocative in a maybe it's a more mainstream way. I don't question authority, necessarily, apart from the bars and the benches, but question everything. question how we live, how we travel, how we exist, how we have fun. So and it doesn't need to be expensive either, what do you really want to do with your life? Like this weekend I'm going surfing with my mate. It's free. like I bought a surfboard a couple of hundred quid and we're just going to go and catch waves on a beach and sit around a fire, because that's what we really want to do.

Max McMurdo: 33:36

Now we're combining that now with making camper vans, because we've both got vans and we love the whole van life concept. That's become really accessible and pleased to see. So I encourage people to get out in nature and explore. but we can mix business and pleasure, and that's another thing. People say don't mix business and pleasure. What Absolutely mix business and pleasure loads, because otherwise you're working in this set of little period of time which is the majority of your time. as much as you sleep, you work, leaving the smallest amount of time to do the so-called fun stuff. No, no, no. If you can make your business your pleasure also, then why not? So again, next week, we're going to be in South Wales surfing, barbecuing, paddleboarding, but also building camper vans that we will be given money for doing, but it doesn't feel like we're going to work, it feels just like we're playing. so don't everybody do this, by the way, because I still want my career.

Zoe Greenhalf: 34:31

You still need a business. Yeah, I understand.

Max McMurdo: 34:35

Yeah, but are you living your best life at all time? So again, going back to that little business we've got, when we write lists, the first thing on the list is always Are we having fun? So are we making this decision because it's financial or Visual or engineering, or because we feel we should be doing it, or are we having fun first and foremost? Are we having fun? if we pass that test, then why else are we doing it? and therefore should we be doing it? But I'm 45. I'm halfway through my life.

Max McMurdo: 35:03

However I look at it, i'm not gonna waste the second half of my life doing things I'm not enjoying. Sometimes work isn't as much fun. Some jobs aren't as much fun as other jobs. You know, i like doing the creative, upfront stuff. I don't like repetition. I don't like necessarily Doing a big run of products.

Max McMurdo: 35:23

I once had to make 280 chairs out of bathtubs. That became quite dull. I suppose I'm really proud. I did them and it was my design and in my workshop my mate Gavin. I fabricated them all. We're super proud of doing it. But after 250 bathtub chairs they get a little bit tedious. So I lost my my mojo a little bit in terms of being creative and something new, but I still love the challenge of creating them.

Max McMurdo: 35:48

I'm terrible, actually, as I believe a lot of creatives, particularly entrepreneurs As soon as one project is nearly financially viable and money-making and my accountants starting to get excited, i go, yeah, i'm done with that, now You're just about to start making money out of, you go Oh yeah, that's why I'm bored, because I want to do something That's innovative again and that's the beauty again. I keep talking about this camp fan business, but that's what I'm sort of going into deliberately now, because every customer's needs are unique. So another experience I've had is that bespoke design is expensive And not everybody can afford it and not every designer makes enough money because of that. They they hide the hours. You know those hours. You're a creative, you know. When you were designing shoes, i imagine that you go oh, i wasn't, i'm not gonna charge for that, because I was just there, i was enjoying it, i was sketching, i was sat in front of the telly, so it's free. We never really add up our hours and charge 50 pounds an hour, do we?

Max McMurdo: 36:44

yet we pay our accountants and book-keepers .

Zoe Greenhalf: 36:47

Well I mean the other side of that is that you get clients who don't understand Why you would charge for something like that. So you know it works both ways. You're also kind of led to believe that I still kind of some proper work, so how can I charge for it? But it is, it's all part of the process.

Max McMurdo: 37:06

I'm the same even now. I know I'm lucky I have an agent now so she can go and have those awkward conversations, so she can be Mr Bad guy.

Zoe Greenhalf: 37:15

have them on your behalf, love it.

Max McMurdo: 37:17

Yeah, because she gets a percentage of my income. So she's out there being ruthless. That's quite nice. I've distanced myself, but. But the camper van thing is as well. Going back to that is that it in it We've created a product that is really really affordable for people and they can do it themselves, but we give him a kit apart. So that makes me so happy and so proud that people without much money can get into van. People who are trades people can slide these units into their existing van without spending 50,000 pounds on a camper. So 2,000 pounds they can have a fully fitted out camper van. Also means I'm Creating an income for me in my business partner, which is important.

Max McMurdo: 37:50

Of course we have to accept that money is a value to us all. We need to put food on the table, but also we've now designed it in a way that we work out of our vans, so we can go and meet a person who has a van in our van on the beach in a beautiful location and Create it using the 3d printer that slides out, using the laser cutter that comes out. So we're doing something we love with, proud of our designs. That's helping someone have a better life in a location We want to be in, charging them an amount of money that we're really pleased with because it's not extortionate. We know it's ten times cheaper than any alternative. We'll win. It is possible that everybody wins, and the other thing I always do on the back of that is when it comes to pricing, which we've just touched upon. Creative people are rubbish at money. We don't like asking for it. We don't like sending out invoices. Yeah, we don't like bookkeeping. We don't. We're embarrassed by asking for money. Probably most creative people I find yeah.

Max McMurdo: 38:49

And I actually now outsource anything to do with money because I know it makes me anxious.

Zoe Greenhalf: 38:54

That's a good tip, even on it's even even in itself. I do think that that's worth highlighting, the fact that you have got somebody there Doing all the awkward stuff for you, because if you're not very good at doing it or it makes you feel Anxious, then let's not let it stop somebody's creativity. Can you then get somebody on board? you can do that little bit for you so that you can then keep going with the creative stuff That you love and make some money from it, so you can, so you can keep going.

Max McMurdo: 39:24

Yeah, one of the best decisions I made as a business owner was outsource bookkeeping and accounting. You can do a lot of bookkeeping yourself, but do you want to and are you proficient at it? and actually, by paying a bookkeeper, would you remove that anxiety and Would they be so much more efficient that actually they might end up saving you money as well. So yeah, so yeah. That was one of the best things I've ever done. It leaves me to do the job I want to do. What I was going to say about money is in every scenario. I think if I was the customer, would I be happy with that. Just always put yourself in that person's shoes. Actually, do they feel like they're getting value for money? If not, why not? If so, that's fine. Ask them for that money. If I was to approach me Or that product and that service, does that feel like I'd be happy? Yeah, absolutely great. That's where I sit. Then, if someone came to me and said let's switch roles now, yeah, i'm happy with that. Therefore, you're in a good place. That that's how I always try and justify my money. Sometimes, i must confess, because of my blue tick, i probably should add I do get offered Larger sums of money now for things and think I'm not particularly comfortable with that. That doesn't feel right because in my head I'm still 22 year old, me, i Physically should be grafting a day's graft to earn X amount of money. And now that feels not quite the right amount of money. I'm not saying I'm rich by any stretch. I spend every penny I earn because I'm dark than I like things. But What I now do, when I'm offered an amount of money that I don't think is correct, is, i think, right. What are their alternatives? Why are they giving me that much money to do that job? Well, they can go to that person who's more expensive but more famous or more skilled or has a bigger following on social, or they can go to that person who's more skilled It's got a smaller following. Like what would be alternatives? and actually sometimes you go. Well, you know, if they want somebody who does more presenting on telly, they could go for George or Kevin or Kirsty, but they're more expensive than me. Or if they want somebody with no following that's cheaper, they can also do that, but they've chosen me For some reason. And also, what am I going to do with the money? I would likely be investing it in designing new things for nice people or helping homeless charity Or going to Kenya to build classrooms, or I'm not going to start doing bad things with my money.

Max McMurdo: 41:43

So actually I've learned that one of my biggest problems, i think my 30s was I Didn't understand my healthy relationship with money and I know why that is now, having done some counseling and therapy around it. It's because my dad brought me up. I had a wonderful upbringing, but my dad brought me up. It took me physically, took me to Sherwood Forest every year because Robin Hood as you'll see from my tattoo, my arm It says Robin Hood there. Robin Hood was my dad's hero and my hero Because he took from the rich and you go to poor and you can hear the emotion of my voice. My dad's now passed away, but that was the main thing I grew up on was the legend of Robin Hood.

Max McMurdo: 42:23

And How can you help other people with everything you do? and if you're doing something isn't helping other people, Is it the right thing to be doing? so I grew up very much giving everything away. I'd give things away when I was in a situation of need. I didn't get myself safe and comfortable first and then give to others. I would jeopardize my own safety to give to others because I didn't understand this Robin Hood syndrome.

Max McMurdo: 42:47

So I've now realized that in order to be the best Robin Hood, i need to make myself safe and comfortable first. So I this is. This is just all about psychology, possibly now, and giving away my therapist's Techniques. But I also have brave heart written on my arm because being Scottish. So now William Wallace has to make me safe with his big sword first. You'll see, i have the William Wallace sword behind me. It's not sharp If your authorities are watching, but William has to make me safe and secure first, and then Robin can come out to play and do his Philanthropic good deeds for other people. So yeah, that's a little bit of an insight I wasn't expecting to delve into.

Zoe Greenhalf: 43:29

I love that, though, and And you touched on there the fact that you've been building classrooms In in Kenya, so it seems like there's no end to your Philanthropic side. How did that come about?

Max McMurdo: 43:43

So that is the best thing I've ever done in the world. It's phenomenal. It was an old school friend of mine, paul Newman, the most beautiful human being known to man. He went to the same school as me but it was a couple years older than me, so we weren't friends at school. I was aware of him at school because it was this like, beautiful, amazing footballer who went on to play for Derby County. He then, when his football career came to an end, became their community trust manager.

Max McMurdo: 44:09

I'm I'm, i must confess, quite anti football and pro rugby, anti football. I don't like the greed and the cheating and there's various problems I have with football. I love rugby. I was brought up to be respectful big lads calling a referee sir. I love all of that. So I'm coming to France, actually next year to sorry, later this year I'm going to France in my camper van to go and watch the rugby World Cup because I think young, young people need to see that as Where they get their role models from big lads hitting each other really hard in the tackle legally And then picking each other up and being respectful and having a beer afterwards. I love everything about it, 100%. Fans, men, ladies, children, families I love everything about

Zoe Greenhalf: 44:52

e-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; we're, we're, we're fully on board With rugby culture.

Max McMurdo: 44:56

He's a keeper, then Absolutely keeper. Where was I going with this conversation? I can't remember. I've lost track now.

Zoe Greenhalf: 45:02

I was asking you about Building classrooms in Africa. Oh, Oh this is how the creative mind works, for anybody listening.

Max McMurdo: 45:17

I Saw a shiny thing go past So. But I didn't realize in football's defense that the majority of premiership clubs and bigger clubs have a big Charitable element to them. So he works for Derby County Community Trust and he said to me He'd seen what I was doing on TV and stuff and he said we'd love you to come on one of our trips. And I always made excuses. I always went Oh yeah, one day, but at the moment I'm too busy or I Wouldn't book it and put it in my diary, because that's what you need to do in life is book things, put them in your diary, you'll work around it, no problem. If another opportunity comes in, you can do either side.

Max McMurdo: 45:54

Yeah, but I never committed and I was probably a bit nervous and Didn't know what to expect. So I one day well, i actually. I got divorced. I recall I got divorced thought oh my goodness, this is really sad times. I need something to cheer me up. I know I'll contact Paul. So I booked it in and again just didn't know what was going on. I had no expectations.

Max McMurdo: 46:17

I took a load of tools over there. I thought I might be of some help because I can fabricate things, i can build things and got over there and it was the best experience of my life, but also the hardest experience of my life, because the the standard of living over there is. It's beyond. You can't comprehend. The humans on the same planet as us, only a five-hour flight away, are living in those conditions. So they have in their homes quite often no running water, no heating, no insulation. It's just a tin roof on some blocks or clay mud.

Max McMurdo: 46:55

Those children have never. They've never had a pizza, they've never had a shower, they've never been to a shop and bought something new. They're just existing and the only meal they get is their meal at school, where they get maize Which is just a really disgusting porridge. They don't eat meat because that's too expensive. They eat a few veggies when they can get them. But That was just phenomenal and in terms of being a driving force and Something to get you into gear, that is great. You know you've got a hundred kids running around being so incredibly happy and positive, with nothing. You feel we're up there cutting a roof truss. A little triangle of wood falls on the floor. A child will come and ask if they can have it, because they're gonna turn it into a little car to drive around in the dirt and you just realize, wow, we're so privileged and what it costs. You know the cost of a coffee in the UK now would feed Probably an entire school. That supply all of their maize for one day to feed, wow, 80 or 100 kids.

Zoe Greenhalf: 47:55

It's very humbling to hear actually.

Max McMurdo: 47:57

It's really hard when you come back. It's the hardest because you then buy a coffee at the airport and think What am I doing? But again, going back to Robin Hood, i had to learn it's okay to drink coffee because that keeps me alive and I am in this environment that's not seen as greedy or non-essential and I can't starve myself here to go there and then I'll be no good to them. So so it's okay to live our life and just occasionally. I send them every month, send them some money, and I support a project now about period poverty as well.

Max McMurdo: 48:29

So that's interesting yeah, one of the things I, particularly asa 4 4 4 a a 4 4-year-old man, didn't ever consider embarrassingly is that the young girls out there when they start their periods and this is another thing, let's talk about periods more like it's a- very nice thing, let's not shy away from it, especially men.

Max McMurdo: 48:49

It's okay to discuss this, but young girls, when they start their periods over there, they don't have access to sanitary products, so they're embarrassed, so they don't go to school one week a month. That's a quarter of their education. They're missing, they get behind with their studies, they drop out of school. So we've got a little thing that we're doing with myself and a couple of ladies out there. I bought them some sewing machines and they've got hold of some textiles reclaimed textiles then now making washable, reusable sanitary towels and stuff so that they can then give them to the girls in the slums to hope.

Zoe Greenhalf: 49:21

That's amazing and it's amazing that you know. It's amazing as a 45 year old man that you're taking that sort of project under your wing as well. So, on behalf of the female population, this is so wonderful to hit, so wonderful to hear, because normally these kind of projects are spearheaded by women who have some kind of understanding of that situation, and to hear a man talk so openly about that is really refreshing. So thank you thank you.

Max McMurdo: 49:49

Yeah, that's made me go a bit tingly, but again, it's going out of your comfort zone. If you feel uncomfortable, good. Good. If you start a business and it's making you feel uncomfortable, good. If you're designing something that's a little bit forward-thinking and you're quite unsure where it's going to go and if you might fail again, good. So, talking about a subject matter you don't know anything about and I can't physically relate to, but I'm prepared to go out there and feel uncomfortable and ask questions and get it wrong and I might use the incorrect phrases occasionally and not truly understand by understanding the importance of the product and what it might do for these young girls. So I'm happy to out, throw myself into every situation a hundred percent, and sometimes I'll upset people, i'll get the terminology wrong, but I assure you it's always from the heart and with good intentions. So yeah, i'm loving that project at the moment. That's making really quite happy oh, that's fabulous.

Zoe Greenhalf: 50:42

I was just gonna ask you something about going back to your camper van company, because one of the things that you said was making van life accessible and it feels like a lot of what you do actually is about accessibility to people. You know, from your, from the hands on stuff that you you're doing in Africa, to the way that you inspire and educate, from your position on TV, from then doing this kind of practical business of camper vans. I mean, me and my partner aspire to own a van and live that kind of van life with our kids. We used to go out on motorbikes before the kids were born and that's something that we don't do now. My children are four and six and we don't feel that comfortable going around on motorbikes. But being able to have a van taking them with us, giving them the experience of just rocking up in different places, meeting different people, having different experiences, just feels like such a valuable thing to be able to give them and yet we feel blocked by the price of that kind of lifestyle. So just the fact that you're creating something that makes it accessible to people is fabulous because finally there's a solution on the horizon and I'm excited.

Zoe Greenhalf: 52:04

I was watching. You know, i've been looking through the some of the building work that you've been doing on those and the containers that you're actually creating and it's exciting because now it feels like my dream is a little bit closer, and I bet that's how the people feel when they work with you as well. You actually yeah, you're actually making people's dreams come true. I mean, how cool is that?

Max McMurdo: 52:23

yeah, do you know what? I've never really considered it in quite those terms, but that's true. And yeah, you've really made that clear to me that most things I do are enabling others. So I suppose I started off with upcycling because the materials were cheap so I couldn't afford high-end design of furniture. So I got some scrap and, using my own hands, i transformed it in something I liked that was desirable. So it is all about accessibility. So you can. You can get into upcycling with not much money and then, if you learn some skills, you can do DIY, which saves you money. So, yeah, it is enabling and encouraging people who otherwise might not have access.

Max McMurdo: 52:59

And the campervan thing particularly so. I'm I've been not banned, but I've been asked to not attend a certain motorhome show because the big manufacturers will be upset with me because they they charge 80,000 pounds for a campervan that I've repeatedly said is nonsense because it's made out of terrible materials, the same techniques that caravans have been using for 50 years in places that an 80s campervan or an 80s caravan, let's say, uses the same materials and techniques for cooking and heating and hot water as as a new 80,000 pound motorhome. The manufacturers have not moved. They still provide you with a telly and an aerial for your telly. You had a Wi-Fi. That what you're doing. So what we're trying to encourage is the main objective of our campervan company without turning this into an advert, because I don't want it to be that, but it's that a tradesperson who works really hard Monday to Friday to earn a living. They have a van. Now could they potentially have a full rail system in that van? that means they can slide their tools out on a Friday evening. They can slide their motorbike or their electric bike or their paddle boards with a kitchen unit and a toilet unit and a couple of seats, as I can. They slide in the same rail system that was there during the week, lock things down for safety, drive to their beautiful destination and then utilize that van for work and play, basically, but on a budget.

Max McMurdo: 54:28

So it's lightweight, it's affordable, it's durable. It comes with like a. We're not even gonna put a warranty on it. We're gonna say, if you have an issue, come and chat to us and we'll probably just replace it or you'll want the next unit up or something. We're not even gonna have a warranty. Of course we're designing things that last. We're not gonna say it's 12 months, because 13 months later it breaks and you come back and buy another one like that. No, you're part of our family now, so you'll be van lifeing forever.

Max McMurdo: 54:53

If you've got a smart car, that's also okay. Buy the little kitchen pod and put that in your boot. It's a few hundred quid. Get a tent and then you might upgrade to a roof tent and then you might upgrade to a slightly bigger car and you can buy another unit and it's all staged payments. Like you don't have to find 80,000 pounds or we'll try and sell you finance if you can only afford a hundred quid and get into our system and then at birthdays and Christmases, get another piece as and when you can afford it, making it accessible to others. And yeah, i guess that's not what my accountant wants to hear.

Max McMurdo: 55:27

He wants me you're lovely if you're listening he wants me to prioritize profit and stuff that's his job now let's get people excited and enjoying it and then, if we're good at what we do, there might be some profit at the end of it. We will exchange money sometimes with people, but profit is not. We're not gonna go. We must make a hundred percent profit margin on everything, or 50, or mark up whatever. I've never even used to know the difference between mark up and margin, anyway until recently. But that's not the priority. Let's create a brand that people love and enjoy and if we do that with integrity and honesty and hard work and good design, money should, in theory, pop out the other end hundred percent agree.

Zoe Greenhalf: 56:11

And then again, i love the way you just described that.

Zoe Greenhalf: 56:16

I can just see this tradesman swapping in and swapping out these pieces in his van, and the exciting thing about that is it's not all work.

Zoe Greenhalf: 56:26

You get to play as well, and you know, essentially that's that's what I'm a huge advocate of.

Zoe Greenhalf: 56:32

So this idea of creating a whole lifestyle that doesn't mean separating work from play or just working and not even having that kind of playful fun element, and I think that's so exciting about what you create everything, everything that you create, has that kind of fun element and and and that's what makes your enthusiasm for life, i think, so infectious. But before I really blow smoke up your bum like that, i actually would like to know what you're gonna do about this situation you find yourself in, where you've been banned from this motorhome show because, knowing now that you're a bit of a rebel and you do like to disrupt, there must be something that you're cooking up, because I don't expect you to now turn around and say, well, i'm just gonna take that line down and I'm just not gonna show my face.

Max McMurdo: 57:36

So yeah, i will no doubt be slightly disruptive, and the thought that me attending one of these events might inspire the big manufacturers to change their ways and get with the times and stop using gas and and diesel heaters and stuff makes me really happy. I don't necessarily want to go to a show and make sales for myself if my very existence and appearance at that show makes them evolve quicker than they know. They currently are brilliant. My work here is done. I don't care if they make the money or I make the money. Let's give people better value for money and use technologies like LED lighting, the internet, infrared, heated ceilings. There's so many really amazing products out there on the market now they're still selling people really, really outdated products for an extortion amount of money so yeah, that's that that makes me happy, just that very thought do you know?

Zoe Greenhalf: 58:32

I find really funny actually there are these you know million pound companies and what they've done is they put a ban on a really small business, which means that ultimately, you've got them running scared, and I think that's amazing. I think I think it's really funny actually yes indeed you know, they obviously feel threatened and I think that's a good position to be in.

Max McMurdo: 58:58

Yeah, yeah, there will be an appearance at a show at some stage. I might have to wear a wig and glasses and a fake nose or something, but interestingly it always develops as well. I'm not like some crazy genius who makes these plots, these kind of events and stuff. So the whole concept of us arriving with our vans at our customers van, that only happened like yesterday. So we was. We've set up this camper van company. It's a year-old, we're very small, we're playing and developing still and we're proud of the fact that we're doing that.

Max McMurdo: 59:31

There's two of us and a 3d printer and a CNC machine and and, in all honesty, the last week we've been looking for a new workshop and the reality is we love South Wales car in my work colleague. He's based in Cardigan, west Wales. I'm in Bedford shire. We're miles apart and we didn't know where to get a workshop and I've looked at a few workshops locally. He'd have to commute here. We've looked at workshops in the middle and then we realized we don't want to be in a workshop anyway. Our clients would then have to come to us and leave their van with us. Then they've got to get home and the chances are they want to be out there exploring, and van life in. So we said, well, why don't we go to them with our vans? we invite them maybe to go paddleboarding together.

Max McMurdo: 1:00:14

So our first meeting is going to be with our clients. We rock up in our vans with our paddle boards and we go out paddleboarding with ocean, lake, river, wherever. During that time they we learn about them, we ask about their needs and their ambitions, etc. Etc. In their budget. And then we go back and then we open up our vans and all of our tools and production facilities are within our van on the same system, the same aluminium rail system. We can then say right, you go off and do what you need to do, go for a hike or whatever. We're going to start fabricating your van for you.

Max McMurdo: 1:00:48

And when they come back that evening, fingers crossed, we've done it in one day. It might be two days. So we've worked with people we like in a location we enjoy. They've not been put out at all because we've got to know them and understand their needs. We've hopefully created a better solution to the problem and we've made a living paddleboarding and hanging out with like-minded people and making their life hopefully better. And we haven't got the rent required for a workshop. So again we've all won. So actually we can pass those savings on to the customer, because there is no workshop overhead either. Happy days.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:01:22

I just love it.

Max McMurdo: 1:01:23

Yeah, i'm excited about my new business. Can you tell?

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:01:26

Yeah.

Max McMurdo: 1:01:26

Can we do your van? please, can we come to Italy and do your van?

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:01:29

Oh my god, I'd love it. I would love We need to buy the van first, I'm afraid, But I would love that so much.

Max McMurdo: 1:01:36

Buy any van now, any van.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:01:38

Right, i'll get looking. Oh, i have loved hearing about this because I'm like holding it up there as an example now of what is possible, and I think the reason the way you've managed to integrate work and play and being authentic and bringing in all of those things that you love is because you're willing to ask the questions and you're willing to be curious and look at things differently. I think that's your superpower. I think you just got to keep going in that direction because it's really really working for you.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:02:10

But I think it's fantastic to be able to allow the listeners to understand that just because somebody says this is the path, it doesn't mean it is the path, and if people just allow themselves to be a little bit more curious, look, if you need permission, let's, we'll give you permission. You've got permission. Go and just explore and play and experiment, and you're living proof that it's totally possible to unite all these different elements and still create something that's making money and still create something that's helping people and still create something that's really fun for you to do as well. So I feel like you know, if anything, if there's only one takeaway from this entire episode it's completely possible to create a life that unites all of these different elements. Nobody can tell you. No, you just kind of have to problem solve your way through it.

Max McMurdo: 1:03:05

I love that. What a perfect way to end. What a lovely roundup. Yeah, and the word play. You said the word play a couple of times there. I love that. Be playful and don't grow up. Don't take yourself too seriously. We've got this one little life. We're a spec on this universe. Like we're tiny, don't take it too seriously. Be playful, stay childish and have fun Absolutely.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:03:27

Thank you so much for this conversation, Max. I have loved every minute of it.

Max McMurdo: 1:03:32

It's been a pleasure. No, thank you, it's much appreciated. It's been good fun. Thank you,

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:03:40

Oh my God, i think that might just be my favorite episode to date. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today, and special thanks to my friend,D Dave Saul, for his hand in orchestrating this crazy interview. For more inspo on living mischievously, sign up to the monthly newsletter or jump into my DMs on Instagram at mischiefandhide. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share or tell a friend, which will help my mission to inspire and empower more people like us to choose mischief over mediocre. Catch you next week and in the meantime, welcome to the rebellion. Ciao, ciao.

Max McMurdo: 1:04:30

Was it okay? That was nice. I liked that. No, I trust you implicitly. You go for it.

Zoe Greenhalf: 1:04:38

I must have a just worthy face, that's good.

Max McMurdo: 1:04:44

And the idea that I'm going to provoke some of the big motorhome manufacturers. I've got Alexa linked to me mum's front door, so I know when she gets a visitor. So it's just going off. I do apologize.